Charbe86

Realism and Fluff issues

87 posts in this topic

So that we keep these debates out of the designer feedback thread.  

 

Frans and I have been having a bit of a debate on how realistic boarding is, and the the issue of how realistic SRS is has come up as well.  

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People were wondering why you would send out a boarding party to a ship you were shooting at. If you look at the rules you don't send them at a ship you fired at. 

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Boarding is very realistic. Capturing the enemies war assets is often a very useful option. You can gather techs, intel and have another ship if you manage to control it properly. I do not see a Problem with a bunch of troopers heading to the bridge, shooting the captain. Shutting down all the life support except for the bridge and engage fold space. There are technicians in the special forces for exactly that reason. They enter with the equip they need and then take over the ship if possible. If they cant get through because the defense is to good (defensive dice roll reducing successes) they just hit the nearest system (the one they were launched at) and damage it. It can happen in reality (as far as spaceships could be seen as real, well pirates used to board ships) and i dont see an issue with it happening in firestorm. Other systems have it in their fluff aswell. If you look at gw's lore for 40k boarding happens all the time.

On srs: why is it unrealistic to have a carrier with Bombers attacking a ship in a bombing run and then go back restocking ammo. I also have no issue with interceptors hanging around defending ships until they have to engage something and restock aswell. (A wing consists of alot of fightercrafts and not only 1 ship) so i see no issue with restocking with new pilots and some ships after a dogfight if the leader of the wing/enough pilots of the wing are still alive.

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If you capture an intact worship you can use it for infiltration into enemy space. You can reverse engineer the technology on the ship for your own use.

In Star Wars Fury( Its a book) the Galactic Alliance boards Centerpoint station in an attempt to capture it (you wouldn't want the enemy to remain in control of a weapon that can destroy a planet now would you).

I think the reason SRS came up was because someone mentioned how a boarding shuttle would have to go through enemy and friendly pd and weapons fire, And I commented on how SRS would run the same risk. So I guess its my fault. 

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Speaking about SRS and realism. The only issue I have is that, for the most part, most factions use manned craft, when unmanned drones would be more suited to the task. Especially seeing as automation is gaining speed in real life.

Just my 2p anway:)

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1 hour ago, Neratius said:

Boarding is very realistic. Capturing the enemies war assets is often a very useful option. You can gather techs, intel and have another ship if you manage to control it properly. I do not see a Problem with a bunch of troopers heading to the bridge, shooting the captain. Shutting down all the life support except for the bridge and engage fold space. There are technicians in the special forces for exactly that reason. They enter with the equip they need and then take over the ship if possible. If they cant get through because the defense is to good (defensive dice roll reducing successes) they just hit the nearest system (the one they were launched at) and damage it. It can happen in reality (as far as spaceships could be seen as real, well pirates used to board ships) and i dont see an issue with it happening in firestorm. Other systems have it in their fluff aswell. If you look at gw's lore for 40k boarding happens all the time.

Knowing the enemy likes to send boarding parties to try to take control of my ships, I'm going to put the exclusive means of ship control in one room and leave no security on my computer systems.  

Actually, I think I'll have 2, 3 or 4 alternative command centers (depending on ship size) where I can transfer controls to so that if enemy marines are getting close (or it just get blown up by enemy action) to one I can transfer controls to a different location and lock down all the computer systems so that they end up with a fancy parlor. And there is no way in hell I'd let just one of these command centers shutdown life support and kill my crew. I'd probably also make sure that engineering will shut down the FTL Drive should we lose control of the command centers.

But that's just my civilian opinion. I'm sure some military minds can tell me why this wouldn't work.

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13 minutes ago, alextroy said:

Knowing the enemy likes to send boarding parties to try to take control of my ships, I'm going to put the exclusive means of ship control in one room and leave no security on my computer systems.  

Actually, I think I'll have 2, 3 or 4 alternative command centers (depending on ship size) where I can transfer controls to so that if enemy marines are getting close (or it just get blown up by enemy action) to one I can transfer controls to a different location and lock down all the computer systems so that they end up with a fancy parlor. And there is no way in hell I'd let just one of these command centers shutdown life support and kill my crew. I'd probably also make sure that engineering will shut down the FTL Drive should we lose control of the command centers.

But that's just my civilian opinion. I'm sure some military minds can tell me why this wouldn't work.

Maybe in the process of arming and supplying the ship and its crew you aren't left with much wiggle room for extra command posts?

Maybe its more effective to heavily secure one command station than multiples, if say advanced enough techniques are used to crack systems that it is a trivial feat to in the very least open a back door in a ship's network, so having another command post is a liability rather than a benefit? 

I mean, without knowing exactly how they are laid out and what is necessary, it's hard to say what exactly you can get away with, security-wise. Or wjat you can commit to sending over as a boarding crew, right? Like, for the Relthoza, a warrior is 15 feet tall, so they wouldn't necessarily fit on an enemy ship, unless for some reason your shipyards were fond of wide hallways. The flip side is that since Relth ships need to accomodate warriors, you probably could drive a light tank around in one, if you could successfully get it aboard, right?

I guess the point I'm making is that the logistics of any given FSA ship or boarding party aren't really well known.

 

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Multiple redundant control rooms has made your ships so expensive you can only afford 2 of them, not a whole fleet. Also your Bridge crew keep getting confused where they are supposed to go each shift. Lol

My marines like to slowly rip the arms off crew members until the crew unlock a computer terminal and give me access, works every time. :)

Relthoza Infantry in PF are drones, quite small drones. I am more concerned with Aquans, surely their ships are full of water. SCUBA Marine Assault!!!

Can I use Nanite Boarding Teams? I spray them all over known space. They attach to passing ships and convert the Ship to one of mine, they even modify the Crew uniforms to match my Fleet, Yay. No it's not Pathogen, we are different, we are machines.

BTW if TV has taught me anything, a backpack of explosives and timers can destroy anything 

Man this is fun... Can we debate the Realism of Shields next...

 

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Channeling Pok time, who originally put this forward.

The reason SRS aren't realistic is because this is what a SRS is in FSA: A big manned missile that approaches a target and then launches more missiles at it. Then this missile turns around and goes away to get more missiles. 

Meanwhile also in FSA exists an unmanned missile that is fired from great distances, approaches its target and then detonates. 

Which makes more sense from an economic and human preservation point of view?

Planes work in the real world because a single jet can mission kill/destroy the worlds most powerful supercarrier, our offensive technology greatly outstrips our ability to defend ourselves. Additionally our missile technology isn't quite there yet in regards to delivery to target, mak no mistake the plane is a glorified weapon delivery service. 

In FSA a single bomber can't mission kill the most powerful Dreadnaught, it will struggle to scratch it. Also missile technology is at the point where they can be delivered at ranges equal or greater than a manned craft. 

So why build an expensive fancy manned missile delivery system that can cost lives when you can viably just build more missiles instead? 

Now I personally think SRS should stay, popular culture and all that (thanks Star Wars). But yeah they aren't realistic or sensible at all.

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Your nano robots sprayed in space stop working due to background radiation as they have no shielding, being nano and all. The hostile ship simply aims high intensity signals at them, shorting them out. 

Modern Warships have a backup command centre, this is already a standard practice, because the opposite end of no backup bridge is the Executor plunging into the Death Star. Bridge crew aren't confused because you have 2 separate crews trained for each one, standard stuff. 

Torture, works on some, doesn't work on others, Hollywood likes to make torture seem like it solves all, but reality no it doesn't.

Relthozan drones are small, do they have opposable thumbs? Can they reach the door handle? Do they have the manual dexterity and intellect to accomplish complex vague and shifting task in a short time with their own initiative and no guiding oversight?

Backpack of explosives with a timer can be disarmed by Macguyver and random hero of the week, just like in TV!

Scuba assault, send in the dolphins!

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realistic:
I am clearly on Frans side, on the realism of Boarding,

if we ever build space ships and these fight between the stars I don't believe that Boarding will be the means to kill/fight the enemy.

 

In Game:
It is a cool way to fight your enemy, and we have 20+ races that Need a distinctiv feeling,

so keep Boarding and Even the Option to capture a ship, I lost my dreadnaught to Boarding exactly once, and I will never Forget that game, so it adds flavour to  the game.

What I don't like at Boarding is that nearly every ship could send out boarders and we tend to do so even if the Chances are marginal, if we expect our ship to die the next turn!
Therefore we Need some restictions to who can use Boarding.

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Actually if anyone wants to read up on realistic things like shields and FTL in a lighter context delve into the Mass Effect codex stuff, really fascinating, good read and takes a decent stab at logically explaining many of the technologies without going to the point you get lost.

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Note to self, nano shielding needed, lets check the crafting recipe, 2 Diamond, 1 Redstone.....

Only 2 command centres... That's easier than Many... I just hope that both your crews try to steer at the same time. Pretty sure they tried that on Top Gear once.

Hollywood Rules Apply. FSA is closer to movies than reality. Also I kidnapped the Family of the crew, if you want to see them alive, you will give me the codes....

Spider drones always have manipulators, I have watched Manga. All of my drones are controlled by VR plugged in teenagers, who all grew up playing Halo. They use a Wifi connection, that would be stable right... Right? ;)

you are assuming that your Mcgyver can beat my Bond. Dice roll time....

Cyber Dolphins? :)

also don't forget that all computer systems in the universe are based off the same code. I can hack your system and give you a virus that turns all your monitors to laughing skull faces

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31 minutes ago, WestAustralian said:

Note to self, nano shielding needed, lets check the crafting recipe, 2 Diamond, 1 Redstone.....Don't forget the animal livers, only 5 out of 10 boars will have an actual liver though.....

Only 2 command centres... That's easier than Many... I just hope that both your crews try to steer at the same time. Pretty sure they tried that on Top Gear once.

Hollywood Rules Apply. FSA is closer to movies than reality. Also I kidnapped the Family of the crew, if you want to see them alive, you will give me the codes....I put Liam Neeson on the phone........

Spider drones always have manipulators, I have watched Manga. All of my drones are controlled by VR plugged in teenagers, who all grew up playing Halo. They use a Wifi connection, that would be stable right... Right? ;)Well my defense Corgis are VR controlled by teenagers who grew up playing CoD, either way the resulting chaos should definitely go on Youtube.

you are assuming that your Mcgyver can beat my Bond. Dice roll time....

Cyber Dolphins? :) I feel shame for not originally mentioning Sharks with frickin lasers on their foreheads.

also don't forget that all computer systems in the universe are based off the same code. I can hack your system and give you a virus that turns all your monitors to laughing skull faces Only if you are using that specific Macbook.

 

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I call dibs on Dr Evil Sharks :)

James Bond defeats Mcguyver ( but only if it is the new Mcguyver) if it is original mcguyver, than I use The Guyver.... Wait no sorry, that's not right

Boar Livers.. I am going to need another stone sword, man this drop rate sucks. I am installing the Mod instead

you get given Liam Neeson from Love Actually. Good luck ;)

The Queen saw the YouTube Chanel and wants her robocorgi's back

Always the MacBook, always...

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Is any of this stuff covered in the faction books? For a sci-fi IP FSA seems really light on detail.  

Which Bond is it? Even old Mcguyver doesn't beat Sean Connery.  I'm so glad I used a linux system for my ships computers.  

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FSA is super light on Fluff, I am really hoping they get some more universe building done for the next revision. 

Sean Connery probably takes the win. Unless he rolls Richard Dean Anderson over for Jack O'Neal, then it's a dice roll again. 

I have a Raspberry Pi Zero in each of my Boarding Drones, they are programmed in Linux with the key directive to load Windows 8 over your Linux. Then everything goes boom

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7 hours ago, alextroy said:

Knowing the enemy likes to send boarding parties to try to take control of my ships, I'm going to put the exclusive means of ship control in one room and leave no security on my computer systems.  

Actually, I think I'll have 2, 3 or 4 alternative command centers (depending on ship size) where I can transfer controls to so that if enemy marines are getting close (or it just get blown up by enemy action) to one I can transfer controls to a different location and lock down all the computer systems so that they end up with a fancy parlor. And there is no way in hell I'd let just one of these command centers shutdown life support and kill my crew. I'd probably also make sure that engineering will shut down the FTL Drive should we lose control of the command centers.

But that's just my civilian opinion. I'm sure some military minds can tell me why this wouldn't work.

Multiple command centers you say? Good i only need one to achieve my goal. If there is a way to shut down other bridges from one, i can do it with my boarding party. Its always a double edged sword. If you can control your ship from 2 spots. The enemy can aswell if smart enough. Or maybe they are smarter? Probably. Maybe have one command center and defend it well? But if that one is down we are done.

So your engineer will shut down the fold space drive? split the boarding party to punch the engineers? You already overwhelmed alot of defensive crew. Not hard to get there once you established a operating perimeter.

As the fold space probably has its own generator because it needs alot of power. Cutting life Support is not necessarily done from the bridge. But hey we kill the engineers anyway so why not cut life support from there anyway. Being in a structured boarding party means you are prepared for eventualities. highly trained and adaptable.

 

Why would you have a manned craft (or unmanned if you want to spare life) over a torp? Well first of all armament. Fighters can have armament to damage other fighters and ships aswell.

2Nd it is not a dumb missile. It can react to shifts on the battlefield and they can get into proper positions. A torp just goes for the enemy and thats it.

On the point sparing lifes of pilots: depends on your tech. If you have good pilots it is hard to trust drones more than your buddies tearing stuff apart. a good pilot can deliver a blow to a ship. And ruleswise that is possible aswell. Even one wing left can damage an enemy ship. Even if the wing only consists of one ship left.

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So suddenly you can send over enough marines to capture multiple critical parts of a ship? I though you just needed the bridge?

And it's not like modern warships haven't figured out how to successfully utilize multiple bridges.

And I'm pretty sure I can program a lockout that the crew in that bridge can't give you the codes to bypass.

I have to say I am disappointed by these 'theme'-based responses to my realistic, snarky but realistic, response to why boarding and capturing ships isn't reasonable. I would have sworn this was the realism thread.

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1 minute ago, alextroy said:

So suddenly you can send over enough marines to capture multiple critical parts of a ship? I though you just needed the bridge?

And it's not like modern warships haven't figured out how to successfully utilize multiple bridges.

And I'm pretty sure I can program a lockout that the crew in that bridge can't give you the codes to bypass.

I have to say I am disappointed by these 'theme'-based responses to my realistic, snarky but realistic, response to why boarding and capturing ships isn't reasonable. I would have sworn this was the realism thread.

you did send a boarding party. look at it this way: you will send enough marines to get the ship under control (probably a few 100. lets say 10 for every ap so 150 if you have 15 ap just to visualize) your main objective is: to get control of the ship. alternate objective: if you cant do that due to lack of man (defensive fire and opponents ap dice throw) you damage the part of the ship you are currently at. efficiency of the alternate obj depends on the troops you have left. 

you arrive in the ship with your party, count heads. the commander sees he has enough people to attack the vital stuff, they split up if needed and move through the ship. basically you just need the bridge but if they have defenses in place like you proposed you have to adapt with your troops.

yes, modern warships know how to utilize multiple bridges. you have one normal bridge and one in the citadel if the first one gets blown apart. but you could still capture it. maybe you need a sneaky approach but hey, why not. there are things like seals and they are capable of doing it. 

well, they wont give u the code? hm k, why not hack it? who stops you from having some people with devices with them to overwrite stuff and bypass security? no one says its not hard but doable. 

how is my response theme based? like army theme based? well, why not? alien races could have a different approach on capturing ships if they have superior tech and better troops?

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1 hour ago, alextroy said:

 

I have to say I am disappointed by these 'theme'-based responses to my realistic, snarky but realistic, response to why boarding and capturing ships isn't reasonable. I would have sworn this was the realism thread.

"Theme based responses" LOL

OK realism time, It Is A Game!

A Boarding Party was used to board damage sub U-570 and capture the enigma machine in 1941. It was a deliberate attack to damage the ship to cause evacuation and alow the boarding party access. This is what I would like in the game

Russia used boarding parties to capture ships in the 2014 Crimean Crisis, worked fine. 

I don't know why the "Defenders" seem to get near infinite security. How many people are dedicated to security. How much room, food etc do you dedicate to these teams. In a fight situation most people probably have a station to look after. 

Whatever... I'm sending Nuke drones, out

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My Darth Vader beats your Bond and Mcguyver. And if that wasn't enough I'm sending the Arbiter and Sergeant Forge.:)

Thus far it appears that everyone is assuming that the defenders have all these lovely defenses because their getting boarded all the time. But what about the attackers? If your a race that uses boarding as a tactic will you not have your troops equiped with the tools of their trade? I would have them equiped with flamthrowers, shotguns, smgs, smoke grenades, incendiary grenades, cutting torches, shaped charges, and hacking devices. They would have techs for accessing computer systems. As I said . don't assume that the defenders are the only ones with the tools or their trade.

Regarding SRS, missiles can't take advantage of tactical opportunities. Missiles can't hit a sheilded outlet. 

I am amazed at how fast this thread took off.

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7 hours ago, Skyhawk said:

Thus far it appears that everyone is assuming that the defenders have all these lovely defenses because their getting boarded all the time. But what about the attackers? If your a race that uses boarding as a tactic will you not have your troops equiped with the tools of their trade? I would have them equiped with flamthrowers, shotguns, smgs, smoke grenades, incendiary grenades, cutting torches, shaped charges, and hacking devices. They would have techs for accessing computer systems. As I said . don't assume that the defenders are the only ones with the tools or their trade.

 

Yup. Dindrenzi breacher teams use god-damn missile launchers in Planetfall to gain entry to buildings. I was expecting HMGs or something when they first came out. Nope Missiles!

Sticking with that if Dind drop pods can readonably pin point a drop site on a battlefield then I dont see why they couldnt easily aim at a ship if carried by a dropship to close proximity.

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They would have to be VERY bad shots if they can't hit a warship. However if I'm trying to board your ship I am not going to aim for the outer hull. I'm going to aim for your airlocks They are much easier to cut through. You have to have airlocks, you connect to space stations don't you. Though Vader would probably just go through the hull.

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Last time I checked, it was way easier to land a missile on a non-moving building than to intercept an ICBM in flight. Now imagine trying to match speed and direction with that ICBM rather than just crashing into it at human killing velocity.

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