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Nazduruk_Bugzappa

Notes and queries on 2.5

97 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, CDR_G said:

...

For a corvette squadron would you need to lose 6 of 10 AP before losing 1 TT die?

As I read the rules, I would say yes.

At first sight this doesn't seem as an improvement concerning corvettes/boarding - but with excess AA-hits now carrying over, its more likely to reach the 6 hits.

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7 hours ago, CDR_G said:

So how does Terror Tactics work (1 per model) with the boarding party being one large group?

Is it ever reduced for losses from anti-boarding AA?

For a corvette squadron would you need to lose 6 of 10 AP before losing 1 TT die?

Let me work this out.  

The AP pool is one large clump for AA fire, but your still keeping track of who gets across from where.  So  on page 146, second last paragraph of nominate parties states: if any boarders are reduced, the boarding player chooses which AP is lost.

As I understand this, five Corvettes, two AP and terror one each.  Enemy takes out six AP, so I choose one Corvette to be empty, four remainder plus four terror.

Sound right?

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A few things I've noticed reading the rules (and weren't mentioned before like the energy template, the disruption generator and the missing Treacherous Terrain Test):

 

p.170 Tesla Generator: Activates now after movement, then I may elect to use it in boost mode, which changes the generator to activate before movement (RAW: when the generator activates, I have already moved, so no bonus ;) )...this is bad wording. I would suggest activating it before movement and change the surge mode to activate after movement.

 

p.175 Elevation bonus: Contains a reference to "Altered Silhouette MAR", which doesn't exist anymore.

 

p.178 Mountain: The table should read

Clear: Aerial (Stratospheric)

Treacherous: Aerial (Obscured)

Impassable: Aerial (Flying/Other)

 

p.181 Cliffs: are Treacherous or Impassable to Diving models?

 

p.199: What is "Strategic Asset (Value) MAR" (I assume "Strategic Value")

 

p.204: What is "Strategic Objective (+50) MAR" (I assume "Strategic Value")

 

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14 minutes ago, hyde1352 said:

Let me work this out.  

The AP pool is one large clump for AA fire, but your still keeping track of who gets across from where.  So  on page 146, second last paragraph of nominate parties states: if any boarders are reduced, the boarding player chooses which AP is lost.

As I understand this, five Corvettes, two AP and terror one each.  Enemy takes out six AP, so I choose one Corvette to be empty, four remainder plus four terror.

Sound right?

I would do it this way.

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1 hour ago, hyde1352 said:

Let me work this out.  

The AP pool is one large clump for AA fire, but your still keeping track of who gets across from where.  So  on page 146, second last paragraph of nominate parties states: if any boarders are reduced, the boarding player chooses which AP is lost.

As I understand this, five Corvettes, two AP and terror one each.  Enemy takes out six AP, so I choose one Corvette to be empty, four remainder plus four terror.

Sound right?

That is exactly how it is done.

@Phant Mastik

That is not what the Tesla Generator says. The generator says that it only activates at the movement consolidation step. At that stage you can choose if you want to give yourself the extra 3" move, or use the Surge ability. This is actually a simplification of the generator. 

 

Essentially, you move your full move first, then you activate the boost if you think you need it. If you don't need the boost, use the surge.

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Sorry, I misinterpreted the "changes to standard generator" thing and thought this affects also its activation. (The standard activation for generators is the Command consolidation step).

 

By the way, this seems to be a slight nerf to the generator. Now you don't know before your movement how many inches you get and you can't use them to turn.

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3 minutes ago, Phant Mastik said:

By the way, this seems to be a slight nerf to the generator. Now you don't know before your movement how many inches you get and you can't use them to turn.

It is and it isn't. The inability to turn is a nerf, but in essence it hasn't changed. You didn't know how far you'd go before using it last edition. So that hasn't changed. But the most important thing is does it give the Surge ability more of the spot light.

I can't tell you how many times I've used the boost ability only to realise that I could have moved the profiles maximum speed and been in range to use the Surge instead. And this was mostly out of habit. 

In v2, I used the Surge ability a sum total of once. Now being after movement will hopefully make it a more meaningful choice.

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My usual opponent uses the tesla gen to come into boarding range. Through the tesla gen you'll get +1mv for sure. But if you need 2 or 3 inches of additional movement to get into range this is now a bit of a gamble and maybe will lead to the decision to make alternative moves.

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It always was a gamble. There were plenty of times I've need 2 or 3" out of the generator and my dice failed me in v2. Really nothing has changed, except that it is resolved after normal movement and that the model must now move straight ahead.

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1 hour ago, Merlin said:

It is and it isn't. The inability to turn is a nerf, but in essence it hasn't changed. You didn't know how far you'd go before using it last edition. So that hasn't changed. But the most important thing is does it give the Surge ability more of the spot light.

I can't tell you how many times I've used the boost ability only to realise that I could have moved the profiles maximum speed and been in range to use the Surge instead. And this was mostly out of habit. 

In v2, I used the Surge ability a sum total of once. Now being after movement will hopefully make it a more meaningful choice.

The surge option was after movement in v2.0 too (page 100 DigiAdmiral). My opponent used it fairly often against me with mixed results. 

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Oh I know it was after movement in v2. It's just the opportunity to use it was very infrequent and more often than not I just forgot that it was there and used the boost more out of habit. Now that both happen after movement should make the choice a bit harder...for myself at least.

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21 hours ago, NaH2PO4aq said:

The surge option was after movement in v2.0 too (page 100 DigiAdmiral). My opponent used it fairly often against me with mixed results. 

I still feel you tried way too hard to stay out of reach of my friendly Luftlancer hugging squadrons.

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On 5/21/2017 at 3:06 AM, Spartan Josh said:

The energy template should be 2"

The target painter wording is correct, this has been changed in the new edition.

Submarines do need to surface to use Mines as they are counted as a weapon type, even though you are not using them in the firing segment. 

Josh

@Spartan Mike Mike, can you give us background on the change in target painters?

 

If they really are only meant to boost the shots of the squad with the TP then why not just change the AD for the listed weapons in that range band to account for the damage? 

 

Having TP not work for other elements in your fleet really doesn't make any sense thematicaly and drastically reduces the synergy or tactical play of almost all models with a TP and makes allot of the support units a lot less viable... looks at thinks in the COA or all those KOB torp painters. i.e. the Euclid pays +15 points for a target painter for a single 9AD gun in 2 range bands? 

 

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@Mr.ponders this was a consideration made by he powers that be, in an effort to remove the complications of additional tokens and "book keeping" from the pace of the system. 

We are evaluating player feedback and unit by unit considerations and if I have it my way, there will be changes made to how each nation might best use these powerful tools (as they should be quite indeed powerful!).

This was a change that has ruffled many feathers understandably. But it's not been one that has been taken lightly in our team and I suspect it will get strong visit from our new Testing team when we build up the log of reviews we have planned!

-Mike

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14 hours ago, Spartan Mike said:

This was a change that has ruffled many feathers understandably. But it's not been one that has been taken lightly in our team and I suspect it will get strong visit from our new Testing team when we build up the log of reviews we have planned!

-Mike

I think it shows a big misunderstanding of what CoA players enjoy about their playstyle. If some other CoA players could chime in here that would be helpful, but for me the fun of the CoA comes from that 'chessmaster' archetype that's been mentioned here and there- I want to plan, to use multiple activations to outsmart my opponent. I'm not playing RC here, I don't want to just sail into RB2 and start firing main guns until everything is gone. Teleporters, Combat Coordinator, Target Painters, they're all reliant on multiple activations, and that aspect is half the fun. Throwing enough dice to crit a DN at RB4 is fun I guess, but outsmarting my opponent, painting up his DN and then blowing it away with what would normally be not enough firepower is what makes me bother writing up fleet lists. And when the plan goes belly up, the painter model gets sunk and I'm suddenly staring down a dreadnought I have little chance of hurting, when replanning on the fly is the order of the day, you're damn right I'm more interested in that than playing a dull old gunline fleet.

Also how did anyone decide that taking one of the most fun 'smart play' options and making it a worse version of the hunter MAR was a good idea, just to save one or two tokens? I don't think I've ever actually had more than one target painter token on the board at once, so I don't really buy that it has any significant reduction to bookkeeping.

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23 hours ago, Sebenko said:

Also how did anyone decide that taking one of the most fun 'smart play' options and making it a worse version of the hunter MAR was a good idea, just to save one or two tokens? I don't think I've ever actually had more than one target painter token on the board at once, so I don't really buy that it has any significant reduction to bookkeeping.

 

This is an especially important point. Simplifying the game to make play run faster is good....to a point. However, how much time is this overhaul of target painters gaining...and what is lost? Frankly, I am not even sure having more painters at long range, but making them only useful to the squadron carrying them during their activation is even resulting in a higher degree of simplicity or faster to play.

I suspect this is a case of many players ranting about generators such as the TP being useless, (due to their lack of longer ranges and activation sequence before moving....as a completely bad rule), being reacted to in a manner that intended to satisfy the folks making said rants. Then also adding in a bit of a general, "removing counters is always good, makes the game faster" philosophy.

So now we have longer ranges, and activation after movement.....but lots more rolling for each individual squadrons generators during their activation. Maybe there is a better solution? If we assume the counters are not especially evil, simply extending range of old school generators could be sufficient. Or, minimal range improvements...or even none at all....with TP gen activation after moving might also be just as smooth. Either solution would allow for maintaining the idea of multi level thinking....which makes the game or certain factions more interesting to play for some of us.

On the flip side...all change is not bad. I see some folks condemning Spartan here a bit too harshly. Are the recent ORBAT updates semi useful at best? Yeah I agree. Does Spartan still need to improve vastly in terms of managing expectations? Uhhh yeah...big time. But with everyone clamoring for ORBAT updates faster...really the only thing I cannot call Spartan out on at this moment is that they should have declared these proto updates...and offered a date for players to expect refined updates....and offered to take all input and criticisms based on these updates with a grain of salt and a smile.

Lack of paid full time product teams is a tough challenge to overcome. We know leadership can become distracted....and frankly that does not help. But dedication to their effort does not seem to be lacking. Spartan Mike surely is investing time and effort. Frankly listening to player feedback is also a tough thing...you have to sift through a lot of sand to find the bits of gold. Feedback is valuable, but frankly most players are focused on their favorite factions and want them to be strong....not overall balance. That renders most feedback biased at best, and bias built on a foundation of flawed analysis common.

I think the effort here to give players what they want is laudable...."make generators better"....and 'make the game play faster too'......but the method might not fit the goal for the TP.

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If only you could hear my endless wailing when we worked through some of these changes... I came here a passionate fan of this amazing game (And one I will always remain!) and in joining the team, my goal is to bring out more theme, better balance and an ever evolving bolstering of community and enthusiasm.

The concerns for the TP are warranted and well noted. Constructive feedback and dialogue is so incredibly valuable to our team, because we are here to make it good for all of you guys and Spartan Team sentiments aside, making the game "perfect" is something very personally important to me. 

With your help and input, I will keep driving it all forward as best I can! My notes are heavy and I know Spartan Josh has a massive pile of his own! We are getting after it all gents... sorry to say it so much but I'm amped up! Exciting times for the Sturginium Age!

-Mike

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Did you consider having a TP simply make an attack Pinpoint? If there is a model that is redundant on, I don't know it off the top of my head...

 

Actually, on Pinpoint - is the fact you can only go up 1 not down 1 a perceived balance issue to prevent Mag Explosions?

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A few points about generators.

-Having the offensive generators activate AFTER movement is a great change. It's not only that you add 8'' of 'range', but you only add that 8'' if you get withint 8'' of the enemy.

-One of the worst generator in 2.0 was the sonic generator. Where the probability to affect anything was below 1/6. In 2.5 it is greatly improved. For the EoBS this change was very welcome.

-I enjoy generators with multiple effects a lot. Tesla, sonic etc.

-Some of the new genertors seems very fun. Especially the whrilwind genertor.

-Most genertors have been upgraded.

-Some new generators seems very fun, especially the whrilwind one :) Which unit will get that one?

-I haven't played against or with the old calcification generator, but it seemed a bit over the top, especially in node form.

-The Entropy genertor: It should have had a (N) in paranteses to allow for an entropy genertor to give more than one corrosive marker. I kind of like the generator as it is, but for a weapon system on a large slow unit, it's kind of weak. If it could infect d6 corrosive markers instead, it would be far more fun. However, if you put the same genertor on a small ship, and you could have 4 of them for 120 pt, this would be an very fun addition.

-The target painter is one of the few genertor which I agree that could be reworded to allow for other units to exploit also.

 

Part of the problem is also that Orbats was a as similar to 2.0 as possible. It was a blind copy with few updates.

 

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A few more notes on generators.

-Putting a defensive genertor on a large expensive ship with large huge guns and toys is a great asset for the ship.

-Putting an offensive genertor on  a large expensive ship with large huge guns and toys is a small fun toy.

-Putting the same ofensive genertor on a medium without large huge guns and toys might be a great asset for the ship. Both due to speed, and the price you pay for it.

-Node: on generators effecting single targets the node is a much greater boost than if it is already a area effect

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Having just gone back through the rules, for page numbers, I have just noticed that there are no references to what victory points for Prizing/Salvaging actually are.

Just another thing to add to the errata sheet.

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