Phant Mastik

Carriers in 2.5

22 posts in this topic

Atm, I'm playing a bit with the new rules in theory, what is possible or not, and how can they be (ab)used RAW / RAI, etc.

 

Would the following scenario be legal according to the (RAW) rules?

 

Example:

Quote

From the rules p.187:

As an example: A Prussian Empire Imperium
Class Airship has the Carrier (6, 1x5 Wing) MAR
meaning it has SIX Carrier Points at its disposal and
deploys a single SAS numbering 5 SAW tokens.
Whereas a Prussian Empire Seydlitz Mobile
Airfield has the Carrier (9, 2x4 Wing) MAR. This
means the Seydlitz has NINE Carrier Points, and can
field TWO SAS with each containing 4 SAW tokens.

We're playing 1000p, so I get 2x5 Wing SAS from Local Air Support and do have an Imperium and a Seydlitz. My total is 23 SAW in 5 Squads (3x5 and 2x4).

I activate one of the LAS squads, make an attack run on something nearby, losing 3 SAW.

Then I activate one of the 4 Wing SAS, flying off the board, placing another 4 SAW in my scrapyard.

The Imperium activates and re-builds a 1x5 Wing Squad from the scrapyard.

The Seydlitz re-plenishes the damaged LAS Squad with 3 SAW from my army box.

At the end of the turn I have 4x5 Wing and 1x4 Wing Squads on the table and 2 SAW in the scrapyard making a total of 26 SAW.

If I manage to lose 3 SAW in the next turn, the Imperium could re-build a 1x5 squad bringing my total to 6 Squads of SAS, one more than upon the start of the game.

 

I know,, this is all theory, but according to the rules, re-plenish does not need taking the SAW from the scrapyard, so I can increase the maximum number of SAWs during the game. And since I needn't keep track on where the squads came from (the rules don't say an Imperium is allowed to have ONE squad in play, they just say it makes 1x5 Wing squads), I can re-build squads with high value as long as I have enough SAW in the scrapyard and re-plenish the squads with the low-capacity carriers from my army box.

To avoid all these sorts of shenanigans we houseruled that you'll need a (previously lost) SAS-Template in order to re-build a squad and this template "remembers" its Activation Marker (if the previously lost SAS was activated this turn, the newly generated SAS will come into play with an Activation Marker).

 

Maybe this should be FAQed (limit the total number of SAWs in the game).

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That all perfectly legal. Replenish actions are just bring the squadron back to full strength. And re-building just says take units from from the scrap yard. 

 

The important part of the example, is not the number of SAWs in the squadron, but the number of activations. You never increased in the activation count, so your perfectly fine adding more SAWs to the table. 

 

That being said, I don't believe you gaming the system by deliberately destroying that one squad of 4SAWs is very pc and if contend that like most tabletop games you can't deliberately just kill your squad by going off the table.

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What you're supposed to do is take squadrons of light carriers (preferably Apollos) and "accidentally" send their SAWs into targets that would be likely to kill off 3 of the 4 each time, for your Imperium's/Rhine's "rebuild" pool.

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You still couldn't increase the SAS activation count as the Re-Build rules on page 189 say "a carrier model can spend 3 Carrier points to rebuild a LOST SAS." 

So you can throw the Apollo SAS at something to die, but you couldn't rebuild the squadron until it is completely destroyed. And your opponent can make sure to not kill it to prevent you from doing so.

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Still nothing in the rules stating that the replacement SAS has to be the same size as the "lost" one, just that it comes out of SAWs from the scrapyard.

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I think Replenish should take the SAW from the scrapyard.

Also, as said in this post 

you can only rebuild a SAS if a SAS is completely destroyed. It says nothing about the size, so you can increase the size. But if Replenish also takes SAW from the scrapyard you can never have more SAW on the board than you started with.

What I still think is really weird is that newly build SAS don't get an activation marker. 

 

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Wow, why do I suspect that Spartan did not intend (or suspect players would infer) for players to be able to add SAWs to a game beyond the starting number. As far as I am concerned, if you lose a SAS squadron you are rebuilding THAT squadron with all its inherent qualities, explicitly- the number of SAWs. Of course when it is relaunched it could change its type, from bomber to fighter, etc.

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Because the problem was never the number of SAWs in a squadron. The problem was always how many SAS you could bring to the table. 

So it was either an oversight or, like myself, they do not see it as a problem.  

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3 hours ago, CDR_G said:

Wow, why do I suspect that Spartan did not intend (or suspect players would infer) for players to be able to add SAWs to a game beyond the starting number. As far as I am concerned, if you lose a SAS squadron you are rebuilding THAT squadron with all its inherent qualities, explicitly- the number of SAWs. Of course when it is relaunched it could change its type, from bomber to fighter, etc.

Because of how rebuilding a squadron is done, it seems clear that Spartan intended the size to change.  If you could only rebuild a squadron of the exact size that was lost it would say that, but it doesn't.  It says you rebuild a squadron of the size the carrier deploys.  If you build a list for it then it shouldn't be too hard to get more, but I think most of the time you might end up with less.  Many of the smallest, cheaper carriers, are all assumed to be 1x3.  What we've heard about the bigger carriers (9) is that they are going to do 2x4.  It is only the mid range carriers, and probably the biggest of the big, that will be doing 1x5 or 2x5.  So there is a decent chance that when loosing a local air support squad and you rebuild it, that it is going to come back as 1x3 or 1x4, rather than the 1x5 that it started out as.

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The book tells you to place a dice on the SAS tray not only to designate which type of SAS but also the starting number of SAW on that tray.

So that suggests to me we can only rebuild to the size that we've lost.

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47 minutes ago, Jsiegel1983 said:

If you use a fleet carrier that has 2 x 4 wings of sas and you use the rebuild action do you rebuild 1 of the wings or both?

The 2×4 wings is the maximum it can launch per turn. Each squadron costs 3cp to launch. So 2 squads require 6cp.

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6 hours ago, Wolfchild said:

The book tells you to place a dice on the SAS tray not only to designate which type of SAS but also the starting number of SAW on that tray.

So that suggests to me we can only rebuild to the size that we've lost.

You can only replenish to the starting size of the SAS tray,  but once its hit the scrapyard it looses that "memory" and you can build a new one at whatever size the carrier puts out.

The Replenish rules specifically state that (pg 188):

Casualties amongst SAWs are inevitable and are often
numerous! All Carriers have the ability to execute
a Replenish Carrier Action, which will see Carrier
Model spend a variable amount of Carrier Points
Replenishing a Squadron. This costs 1 Point from the
Carrier Value per SAW replaced and may not take the
SAS above its Initial Deployed Strength.

The rebuild rules on page 189 have no such restrictions and no mention of the initial size of the SAS:

The Carrier Model may then immediately launch
the new SAS equal to the permitted Squadron size
stated in the Carrier’s MAR
. This new SAS can only
be Re-Built from SAW casualties taken from a player’s
Scrapyard. The newly created SAS must be deployed
within 4” of the Carrier Model which created it.

 

And the part about the dice on page 183 only mentions Replenishment Actions:

Each SAS is deployed with a die in its Tray that
denotes its starting Squadron Size, which is referred
to as its Deployed Strength. This does not change
in-game and is important for determining how
large the Squadron can be when benefiting from a
Replenishment Action.

It is also true, as you've stated, that the dice is to indicate the type of SAS, but we know that it is possible to change the type of SAS with a carrier action or when the SAS is being rebuilt.  So the SAS dice is a very handy way of keeping track of information but it is far from a "fixed and never changing" record.

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Cheeky but neat lil loop hole then.

I don't particularly like how it's developed that smaller carriers can launch 5 SAW but larger carriers generally only 4 SAW as one SAS. It seemed better before when the Carrier value and number of SAS were the same. All this new system does is prevent 3 SAW tile activation spam, but seriously, needing small carriers to launch larger SAS is illogical.

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On 8/11/2017 at 3:39 AM, Wolfchild said:

Cheeky but neat lil loop hole then.

I don't particularly like how it's developed that smaller carriers can launch 5 SAW but larger carriers generally only 4 SAW as one SAS. It seemed better before when the Carrier value and number of SAS were the same. All this new system does is prevent 3 SAW tile activation spam, but seriously, needing small carriers to launch larger SAS is illogical.

Not sure of your issue, as I see it (and admit I've not checked every list) Light Carriers tend to have 1x4 wing and larger carriers are either 1x5 or 2x4?

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15 hours ago, khakiduck said:

Not sure of your issue, as I see it (and admit I've not checked every list) Light Carriers tend to have 1x4 wing and larger carriers are either 1x5 or 2x4?

Pretty straight forward--Its the Assault carrier he is referring to. Or Super Forts (most) and other models that a 1x5 Support Squadron SAS. 

The bigger carriers produce weaker SAS units, year you get two of them but if when you use them you lose the fight in part to the 1x4 limitation even though you come from a larger airfield it feels unfair, and illogical.

Meanwhile,  as far as I am concerned the Rebuild action is limited to the specific squadrons in the scrapyard, period. So I would want the tray and die included so that players can track what's available.

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7 hours ago, CDR_G said:

Pretty straight forward--Its the Assault carrier he is referring to. Or Super Forts (most) and other models that a 1x5 Support Squadron SAS. 

The bigger carriers produce weaker SAS units, year you get two of them but if when you use them you lose the fight in part to the 1x4 limitation even though you come from a larger airfield it feels unfair, and illogical.

Meanwhile,  as far as I am concerned the Rebuild action is limited to the specific squadrons in the scrapyard, period. So I would want the tray and die included so that players can track what's available.

I think the reason the assault carrier is 1x5 and fleet carrier is 2x4 is to make you decide if you want more saw wings or better saw wings.  Both have their strengths and weaknesses.  As for putting the saw tokens and trays in the scrap yard, that is how my group plays.  It is easier to keep track of how many tiny flyer tokens and trays you a have available if you put them in the scrap yard.   

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Imagine that, having to choose between two different things and that the "one with the highest numbers" isn't always best in every situation.  Its like they're trying to balancing things and give every option pros and cons.

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If Im paying 30pt extra, I'd like to feel more of an advantage. Also it just doesn't feel right to only be able to field the smaller SAS from a fleet carrier

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1 hour ago, Wolfchild said:

If Im paying 30pt extra, I'd like to feel more of an advantage. Also it just doesn't feel right to only be able to field the smaller SAS from a fleet carrier

Part of the extra points you are paying for goes towards being able to continue to launch planes. When a CV6 carrier takes 4HP damage, it cannot relaunch. A CV9 carrier with up to 3 damage can still relaunch 2 squadrons, and can still relaunch 1 up until it takes 8 damage (which is pretty much its final HP anyway).

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3 hours ago, Nazduruk_Bugzappa said:

Part of the extra points you are paying for goes towards being able to continue to launch planes. When a CV6 carrier takes 4HP damage, it cannot relaunch. A CV9 carrier with up to 3 damage can still relaunch 2 squadrons, and can still relaunch 1 up until it takes 8 damage (which is pretty much its final HP anyway).

Meh. Not buying the 9 Carrier points make it better. More resources makes you less capable on a unit by unit basis? It seems arbitrary. You are still making 4xSAS.  Which REALLY hurt with Bombers. Big, Big impact. The Fleet carrier should have a 5xSaw SAS and a 4xSaw SAS, at least the expensive ones. I would gladly trade a carrier point for that.

It is another change like carriers not being able to provide their own SAS, that smells of play balance manipulation via an easy out, but makes no sense. Arbitrary.  I guess the vision of cycling lots of SAS was part of the idea. Not sure what happened in the testing but in a three turn game that is is not a big part. With starting distances closer, upping the destruction and shortening the games, it is unlikely to be a big factor. It isn't in almost all of my games, which include players from a 75 to 100 mile range , covering different club styles.

Especially with the tactic of leaving 1 or two bomber SAWs intact. 

The "choice" they are making you take seems wrong. I have no issue with the single 5xSAS with the Assault Carriers and most Super Forts.  But the fleet carriers that stay back, build crappy, yes crappy, attack SAS will seem wrong. If it had been 5xSAS and a 4XSAS for big carriers no one would have blinked an eye.

 

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