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Spartan_FA_Mike

3rd Edition Command Orders

178 posts in this topic

Could be an interesting option for Directorate to "borrow" a faction order.  "Intercepted Intel.  Select a core 6 faction at random and an order at random by rolling 2D6.  Replace any instances of the selected faction's name with Directorate/Works Raptor as needed.  1CP"  Maybe really good, maybe worthless, always funny.

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Factions that have secrets mar maybe they get a chance to cancel command orders or sabotage them in some way.

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The more I think about the CO mechanic, the more I wonder whether it would be good to make it even more universal, e.g., by moving to a system where a basic squadron activation costs a CO.

That would introduce a timing aspect as well as a distinction between big, powerful fleets with a need to quickly achieve their objectives (else they run out of steam/COs for activations) and smaller fleets with significant amounts of staying power.

(Thematically, that would push COs more in the direction of logistics, with a fleet low on CO having reached the end of their logistical tether with little room for prolonged engagements (Pearl Harbor comes to mind as a real world naval example).)

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On 8/10/2017 at 8:41 AM, Spartan_FA_Mike said:
On 8/9/2017 at 3:20 PM, Polaris said:

question, can ships still be deployed at full stop? and if so, does it cost a CO per squad?

As currently written, no, ships do not deploy at Full Stop.

this is very DUMB CO should NOT be used to come to a full stop or to put on 'THE BRAKES" OR to  start moving again. it is a wast of a com point and takes away from the feel of the game.  if I shunt in 3 Terran destroyers in a flanking movement and there shot is already lined up I now need to make a Comm point to come to a full stop if I feel I do not need to move. dumb, dumber, dumbest.

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On 8/2/2017 at 8:35 AM, Paladin21 said:

The balance is that you have an advantage on the roll to go first (or defer) each turn versus the fleets that have cheaper CP.  You pay less versus those that are more likely to go before you. In the past, having a lower FT (fleet tactics) was just a straight-up disadvantage.  You were more likely to get double-dipped (hit at the end of a turn and then again at the beginning with no response).  You had worse defence against Cyber.  You had less of a chance of getting the table side you want.  It was just bad.  

This is an attempt to bring some balancing action so that it's not a straightforward picture of higher FT=good and lower FT=bad.  There's a lot playing into this, not only with CPs.  There's also the new attacker/defender dominance rule to consider.  If you're the attacker, you get a free bump to your FT roll.  This either brings you to equality in FT with a faction that has more expensive command points than you, makes you have an advantage over those with the same CP cost as you, or gives you a large advantage over those who pay much less for CP.  If you're the defender, your FT remains the same, but you get a free CP back each turn.  This is the equivalent of a couple of free Frigates over the course of the game.

Is the approach balanced?  I have no idea and wouldn't want to push it too hard until we see ship stats and the commands get a little more polish.  I will say, however, that it's a step in the right direction from the former system where there was no offset whatsoever to having a low FT.

Hell no it isn't balanced! An extra FTB to initiative isn't jack-$#!t compared to watching your opponent screw you over with a regenerating Command Point each turn.  That is some frustrating bull$#!t right there!

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3 hours ago, murphy'slawofcombat said:

 if I shunt in 3 Terran destroyers in a flanking movement and there shot is already lined up I now need to make a Comm point to come to a full stop if I feel I do not need to move. dumb, dumber, dumbest.

they do have a MAR called specialist, reduces the command point cost of a maneuver, so destroyers should be able to go into full stop free of charge, as well as dedicated boarders boarding ect.

still not  fan of everything (faction orders ...yeah ;) ) but it may not be quite as bad as it sounds

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Balanced? Unlikely. I'll use my Aquan +3 FT bonus to win the roll and choose defender every time to get the boost in CO...or, I'll roll low and still at least have better initiative advantage. Something doesn't seem right here.

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Having played a game with Command Points, I'm not thrilled with it.  Some of the Faction Commands are outright broken, the general ones are somewhat useful and one did save my butt when a crit effect nearly caused one of my battlecruisers to crash right into the planet. The whole attacker/defender thing I mentioned above.

Combined with the carrier rules for wing loss with damage, I would always auto-include Focused Shield Harmonics on my Regents. Before it was an ok trade-off of firepower for less shielding, and extra hull point. Now that becomes a liability, more hull points means more Wing Count penalties to ultimately screwover your carrier. Why the hell wouldn't I always put entire game extra shields on it.

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7 hours ago, Polaris said:
11 hours ago, murphy'slawofcombat said:

 if I shunt in 3 Terran destroyers in a flanking movement and there shot is already lined up I now need to make a Comm point to come to a full stop if I feel I do not need to move. dumb, dumber, dumbest.

they do have a MAR called specialist, reduces the command point cost of a maneuver, so destroyers should be able to go into full stop free of charge, as well as dedicated boarders boarding ect.

still not  fan of everything (faction orders ...yeah ;) ) but it may not be quite as bad as it sounds

NO  AND I MEAN NO ONE SHOULD have to spend a Conn pt to S T O P   .......dumb dumber dumbest and down right WAFU

 

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5 hours ago, Commodore Jones said:

it still shouldn't be that you have to pay a command point to do it at all.

As said above, I think it should perhaps be even more universally applied.

Make paying a CO a prerequiste for squadron activation.

Then have additional CO payments for specific actions taken by the squadron (already implemented).

 

Apart from everything else, that should also help to reduce the cognitive disonance with some basic maneouvres being free (like moving forward) while other, equally basic maneouvres cost CO (like coming to a stop).

 

(Just add in a step where unactivated squadrons make a mandatory move during the end phase, and you even kept the aspect of continual forward motion.)

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you shouldn't need a command point to activate, you already pay for the ships, you shouldn't have to pay every time you want them to shoot

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Yes, you should. :P

Do I want a large task force which my logistics will barely be able to keep supplied, so that if my initial attack fails I will have to quickly fall back towards my own lines of supply/friendly bases?

Or do I want a smaller task force in good supply, operating free of logistical constraints and thus able to outlast my enemy?

Very viable.

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21 hours ago, Polaris said:

they do have a MAR called specialist, reduces the command point cost of a maneuver, so destroyers should be able to go into full stop free of charge, as well as dedicated boarders boarding ect.

still not  fan of everything (faction orders ...yeah ;) ) but it may not be quite as bad as it sounds

I think my point is that you should not have to spend a cam pt to stop no mater what ship comes out of FSD it could be a BB, Carrier , BC....ect that rule is WAFU....aka WET AND ****ING USELESS 

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What happens when you run out of command points and squadrons that haven't activated, if command points are required for activation?

momentum movement forward and defensive actions only?

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15 hours ago, fracas said:

What happens when you run out of command points and squadrons that haven't activated, if command points are required for activation?

momentum movement forward and defensive actions only?

I'd say yes, though I would make activations optional (so you do not have to activate every squadron every turn, with the unactivated ones handled as you describe) and include running out of CO as a trigger for ending the game.

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Hmmm. I'm not super sold on this system.  Command points for moves that used to be free feels wrong.  You shouldn't need to have a resource cost tied to boarding or stopping a ship.

Command points based on fleet size or number of squads taken or bought with points is fine. But what you do with them looks pretty wonky.  I actually think the special orders system from Battlefleet Gothic was really solid. Not the assignment system, which was way too RNG based, but the orders themselves.  It gave a bonus and malus to the ships involved so you had clear decisions to make.

At the start of the turn each player assigns orders to their ships using command points, but make those orders interesting!  Power to the guns at the cost of maneuverability, power to the shields at the cost of speed.  Power to the engines at the cost of firepower, etc etc.  Give a clear upside and downside to each order.

 

Don't tell me my ship can't slow down or launch a boarding assault because the admiral didn't say to explicitly.

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Commands points shouldn't be used for going to full stop or pulling a 180, orders such as these should come from the captain of the ship. 

What about having a set number of command points based of the size of the fleet? A game under 1000 points could have 15, and 1500 point game could have 25. and so on. 

Just an idea.

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38 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Don't tell me my ship can't slow down or launch a boarding assault because the admiral didn't say to explicitly.

Would you say that part of this may be down to misleading nomenclature?

Calling the resource you pay for these options "Command Orders" surely implies that this is meant to somehow simulate the admiral directing their fleet. But looking at many of the effects, this image does not hold up very well. It certainly is not the admiral yelling "power to the shields!" which suddenly makes shield systems across multiple ships increase in efficiency, neither will "target their bridge!" make weapons miraculously hit more precisely. If I had to give in-universe reasons for such effects, I would probably ascribe them more to excellent work by the maintenance crews making sure the shield generators perform at peak efficiency during the mission or to extensive gunnery drills (in combination with commanders knowing when to apply either, obviously).

So, what if instead of "Command Orders" we would be talking about "Training Levels" or "Logistics and Maintenance" or "Drill" or even - keeping the command connotations but stepping back from attributing it all to the person of the admiral - "Officer Corps Quality"? Would you say that this would alleviate some of the issues you have? Or does that make no difference to you. For some reason, I am really curious about this. :)

 

PS: The disconnect you describe when you think about formerly free options suddenly having a CO cost associated with them is part of the reason I specualted about moving to a system where the activation itself would already cost a CO. But seeing that Spartan are unlikely to adapt that, it may be a bit beside the point but I still felt like reiterating it. So, there. :P

Edited by blut_und_glas
Typo (one of many for sure...)

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