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Spartan_FA_Mike

3rd Edition Faction Orders (Stuff here now!)

40 posts in this topic

Thank you for posting the update @Spartan_FA_Mike.

Is there any chance, that the orders which are included in multiple lists (e.g., Inspired Command appearing in all six, or Mastery of Wings appearing in four) will be replaced by faction-specific versions, which have at least slightly different effects from faction to faction (or even completely different effects)?

The way the lists currently read, the repeated orders seem a bit bland.

If it is important to have these effects, a list of general tactial orders available to everyone might be a place to put them.

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@Spartan_FA_Mike i'm with @Meatshield on refreshing command points, an entire fleet falling apart to disorder with the admiral standing by , just because you didn't spend enough money on CO feels wrong

however, disorder was meant to be a second avenue to kill ships, and it can, but how about this as an idea

the admiral in 2.0 was more then just points to score, he allowed TAC's and losing him meant you needed one more success to pass command checks

what if the 3.0 admiral were to generate 1CO point per turn, as long as he is on the board, giving a minor but present ability to command his fleet, and reorganize troops, making him that much more of a priority target for the enemy fleet

I feel like the change isn't too drastic, it would by nature be balanced as long as admirals are present, and gives another thematic and strategic element to the admiral, which I think would enhance the game :) 

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So the Terran +2 SH order, can I ask if the balance implications have been considered.

I don't want to see a number of Terran ships artificially SH capped because of the possibility of an order that boosts them.

The order should be nerfed/removed, not the actual ships that may possibly be benefiting.

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Can you highlight the changes made? These look the same as the first batch (including the mention of helices in one of the Dindrenzi ones).

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7 hours ago, Meatshield said:

Sorylian/Veydreth don't have any orders that are game duration, is this deliberate as all others have at least one?

Blessings of the loremasters, I feel this could be better constructed as right now it's quite variable and it still costs 3 points. I think a more fixed gain would work better, and a reduction in cost to compliment a fixed gain. 

Directorate: Proscribed Repair Systems, the scaling in larger games for its cost throws up a red flag, as it essentially has no ceiling. Factor in what we know from fleet construction and the benefit gained from spending 3 points.

Terran, Honour the charter and Focused shield harmonics strike me as easily becoming auto-purchase to the point that people subtract points from a fleet list before even building a fleet.

Yes, the S/V don't have a game lasting effect...the Blessings is meant to be that game duration effect.

For the other stuff, yeah, we have some work to do on these.  I'll refer back to my first statement: DRAFT, and subject to change with community involvement.

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I think you may want to reconsider every one of the "Until the End of the Game" Commands. They are essentially upgrades that cost Command Points instead of actual tactical actions that I would expect. Many are also auto-includes to the extend that they will be built into every decent admirals Command Point budget a fleet construction:

  • What Directorate/Works Raptor Admiral is not going to find 30 points to use Proscribed Repair Systems to give all his large ships Regeneration?
  • Is there anything keeping a Terran Alliance/Hawker Industries Admiral from spending 45 points per squadron to give every squadron in his fleet +2 Shields by using Focused Shield Harmonics Turn 1? That's a better deal than a Shield Cruiser.

I can go on, but I think you see my point.

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1 hour ago, ThePayneTrayn said:

Can you highlight the changes made? These look the same as the first batch (including the mention of helices in one of the Dindrenzi ones).

Argh. That's what I get for doing this late at night.   Mostly the change comes from listing the cost as CO (Command Orders) instead of TV.  Also, clarified that a squadron belongs to the core race.

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1 minute ago, alextroy said:

I think you may want to reconsider every one of the "Until the End of the Game" Commands. They are essentially upgrades that cost Command Points instead of actual tactical actions that I would expect. Many are also auto-includes to the extend that they will be built into every decent admirals Command Point budget a fleet construction:

  • What Directorate/Works Raptor Admiral is not going to find 30 points to use Proscribed Repair Systems to give all his large ships Regeneration?
  • Is there anything keeping a Terran Alliance/Hawker Industries Admiral from spending 45 points per squadron to give every squadron in his fleet +2 Shields by using Focused Shield Harmonics Turn 1? That's a better deal than a Shield Cruiser.

I can go on, but I think you see my point.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the game length effects.  It's just another thing to track, and it does become default usage.  These orders need to be good, even above average, but not superhero strength.

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5 hours ago, Polaris said:

@Spartan_FA_Mike i'm with @Meatshield on refreshing command points, an entire fleet falling apart to disorder with the admiral standing by , just because you didn't spend enough money on CO feels wrong

however, disorder was meant to be a second avenue to kill ships, and it can, but how about this as an idea

the admiral in 2.0 was more then just points to score, he allowed TAC's and losing him meant you needed one more success to pass command checks

what if the 3.0 admiral were to generate 1CO point per turn, as long as he is on the board, giving a minor but present ability to command his fleet, and reorganize troops, making him that much more of a priority target for the enemy fleet

I feel like the change isn't too drastic, it would by nature be balanced as long as admirals are present, and gives another thematic and strategic element to the admiral, which I think would enhance the game :) 

6 hours ago, Meatshield said:

I am feeling a better system would be an inherently small Command Point pool that refreshes at the very beginning of your turn. 

Force tactics can be used to determine refresh number, so Dindrenzi refresh 3, Sorylians 1. Admiral's ship could add another 1 to this. Possibly also MARs like Ops centre though saturation is a concern. 

Then you could customise by faction for the starting pool, so the Sorylians who refresh slowly start with a bigger pool than what Dindrenzi do. This would also act as a limiter on spamming certain game duration orders being purchased in large quantities.

We may get to this (a different system of points).  I would like to test the current system first, to see how/if we're off the mark.

Remember, it's not that the Admiral is standing around, it's that there is too much to handle.  Disorder is not a group of sailors worried about how things are going.  It's having half the team dead, the lights are flickering, and you can hear the Space Lizards (tm) coming down the corridor.  It's a serious breakdown of discipline.

Losing the Admiral increases the cost of any Command Order by 1, as opposed to regenerating a point each turn.

For these specific faction orders, I think we need more work to balance (and rename in some cases) to get them to be meaningful and somewhat balanced.  But as for the way we buy and get command points, let's stick with the current proposed method until we have some more game experience.

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Focused Shield Harmonics, rename to Cyclic Shielding.

One Terran/Hawker squadron. For the remainder of this game turn Direct attacks made against any model in this squadron do not benefit from any Weapon Assigned Rule that is a coherence effect. This Order has no benefit on any model that doesn't have active Shield Systems.

Reduce cost to 1 or 2.

Wiggle room options:

Expand to Indirect?

Cover an additional squad/ship by paying another point? (Assumption of cost 2, which is probably too steep, but cost 3 for 2 squads may be palatable)

 

Redundant Emitter Arrays (or something)

One Terran/Hawker squadron. For the remainder of the Game all models within the squadron with an active Shield System do not suffer the -1 penalty to their SH value in the other arcs when electing to Sector Shield an arc.

Cost 1 or 2 (strictly weaker than Harmonics)

 

Honour the Charter

Nominate one Terran/Hawker squadron. All models within the squadron may remove a single Disorder marker per ship at the beginning of the End Phase. This effect remains for the duration of the game.

Cost 2 or 3

 

Replace Inspired Command with Do You Remember Dramos?

All Terran/Hawker vessels within 16" of the Admiral's vessel that make an attack benefiting from the Nuclear Munitions WAR immediately apply the required amount Disorder Markers if the attack causes at least 1HP of damage instead for the duration of the turn.

Cost 3 or 4

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Rename Marker-Light Precision to Chorus of Dramos Or Black Rain

Insert an additional qualifier that the squadron must not have benefited from any Command Order during the movement segment of it's activation (rapid and sudden maneuvers/velocity changes ruin precision targeting).

Cost 3

 

Replace Mastery of Wings with Arcbolt Mastery

Nominate one friendly Dindrenzi/RSN Large or Massive model. At the beginning of it's activation the nominated model may elect to replace the Kinetic WAR and take the Corrosive WAR instead for the remainder of the turn. The option to select the Corrosive WAR remains for the duration of the game.

Cost 2 or 3

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Not even sure where to start commenting on these, other than I hope it's a VERY early draft and will be significantly changed.  I've genuinely been trying not to go hugely negative in these v3 threads but this one flipped me over the line.

First point:  Get rid of all the "rest of the game" effects.  They aren't "orders" in any sense of the term, they are enhancements that belong in the hard point/upgrade section of ships/squadrons.

Second point:  These are a balancing nightmare.  For example, the various repair effects:  Dindrenzi and Aquan spend 40 (fleet) points to remove 2-7 markers from one squadron, the Relthoza 15 points to remove 1-3 markers from one squadron, and Sorylians 30 points to remove an unlimited # of markers from all squadrons.  Terrans and Directorate don't get an order to do that, but do get Regen on large models that works 1/3rd of the time for 30 points, or +2 shields on a squadron for 45 points (Terrans can also spend 45 points for a squadron to never take Disorder markers, which seem like they will be the most common ongoing effect).

Third point:  Some of these are ridiculously good.  Aquans are the only faction who will be making extensive use of movement orders, thanks to Impossible Maneuver making them really cheap.  Directorate Blanket Fire is a ridiculously cheap F-you to critical defenses for entire classes of ships (and really screws some opponents, ala the Biohazard/Weapon Shielding problem)

Fourth point:  Some can be an way too random:  the Sorylians can spend 30 points for Blessings of the Loremasters, and get points back equivalent to a final value from -10 (if they roll snake eyes) to +90.

Fifth point:  Or possibly a sub-point, who knows.  Making these balanced and flavorful is hugely difficult for the 6 core factions (8 if you count Saurians and Pathogen).  You're going to have to repeat this for all the Marauder factions as well, meaning you'll end up with another huge set of charts and difficult to balance effects.

I'd go on, but my doctor has warned me to watch my blood pressure.  Honestly the more I see of the entire command point mechanism, the more I dislike it.  I'm sure it's too late to eliminate the entire mechanism so I can grit my teeth on the standard orders, but these faction orders...no way.

Silly point:  The Tau called, they want their marker lights back.

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I agree with reddwarf on most of his points, but want to specifically chime in to complain about the "for the rest of the game" effects.  These will require tracking (I thought all these rule changes were to avoid tracking too much stuff?) of squads.  Also, things that effect squads for the entire game should be in the cost of the squad.  With the Directorate and Terran orders, you might as well just tack the MAR onto the models directly and put in "The first squad you take with this MAR costs an additional +30/45 points.  Further squads have no effect."  I can't imagine a game, other than perhaps the smallest possible force allocations, in which these rules would *not* be in effect.

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They're are so many balance issues here that I don't know where to begin. These are going to require EXTENSIVE play testing to find all the broken interactions.

 

Honor the Charter :

 

Never take a disorder marker? I don't think this needs explanation.

 

Focused Shield Harmonics :

 

This is beyond broken. +2 shields for free in a 1000 point plus engagement? 

 

How about adding Honor the Charter to Focused Shield Harmonics? Viola, an unkillable Dreadnought.

 

Marked for an Honorable Death :

 

Sure, let's throw this on a squadron in a close game on the last turn when you know it's going down. This can't even be balanced 

 

Impossible Manuever : 

 

Uhm, yeah, as an Aquan player I'm using this a lot. Not trying to shoot my faction in the foot, but damn.

 

Proscribed Repair Systems :

 

Seriously? This is easily abused. These abilities should be reserved to the ships the MAR is attached to for balance reasons.

 

Pasted from a text editor and I don't know how to change the text size help! :)

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