Spartan_FA_Mike

Sorylian/Veydreth Re-Stat Discussion

24 posts in this topic

Same Preamble, what I'm doing here:

I have an idea of what I think should be changed, but I'm trying not to make it about what only I know.  Good points have been made in that the factions need to provide each other some synergy, and also fill some holes that the other lacks.  But not to the point of creating a super-fleet that has all advantage and no weakness.  I am trying to avoid creating a default fleet that has the same ships, because there are no other good choices.

I'm not looking to redesign every ship in every fleet.  That said, every ship will be different because of the primary/secondary/tertiary systems, and to make up for new/lost MARs.  I'm trying to keep values the same as much as possible, but there will be a lot of changes to the catalog of ships.  Ideally it would be a simple translation from v2 to v3 and away we go.  But we have an opportunity here to make corrections, and to hopefully make some interesting choices available.   

So, what I'm looking for are the worst offenders.  Which ships are always or never taken.  What synergy potential is lost because the systems don't line up (as in beams on one, but not the other).  If you could only change 2 ships, what would those be?

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Stuff I always use

Falcata/Skyhammer Cruiser

Scythe Frigates

Plumbata Corvette

Stuff I never use

Kestros Destroyer - can't look after itself, gun is...I mean...it's not bad but only useful in a narrow band, expensive for that limited capability, torpedoes useless (woo...8AD torps...), port/star useless (someone thought a fully undamaged squadron in optimal range band, fully linked getting 6 dice was worth including?), easy to destroy. Ambush is...something I guess but deploying forward with it is counter productive to the main weapon and you want to reveal early to make maximum use of that gun. Sometimes you might want to position in a distant corner to appear in the rear later in the game after everyone has engaged already but that's a lot of points for a very limited use case that is easily countered and a very narrow weapon band in which it's good anyway.

Stuff I resent using

Anything T1 that isn't a Hasta - I have to take a T1, Hasta Battlecruisers are great IMO (though part of that is exploiting PD Mountain) but not suitable material for the Admiral or the only T1 on the board so you end up needing to take something like the Falx which does nothing special. It's just a target to get shot up so the effective parts of your fleet can arrive on the enemy. Doesn't help that Sorylians and Relthoza were (and still will be) the only core fleet to not get a second set of T1/2/3 from a 'starter box' like the other four did.

 

Nothing Veydreth bring to the party is particularly exciting. I have some of their ships...never see a need to use them with my Sorylians. The racial specific TACs never get any use anyway. +Mv, +Initiative get used constantly and recycled...nothing else TAC enticed me.

Sorylian Boarding is not a tactic that gets meaningful use. It's something you use because you happen to be in range and may as well try, speculatively hoping for a damage point or something. Considering how much it's supposedly part of their 'character' it's not something that plays out that way.

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I haven't played against or with Sorylians in at least a year.  They just weren't fun for either the person playing or their opponents.  The only winning strategy we could find for them was to try to tough it out to get a few points from the scenario and then bail before damage caught up and messed up your BL score.  

The Hasta's are good, and I actually got good usage out of the Destroyers too (by ignoring Ambush and just letting them snipe with Kinetics from turn 1).  Everything else in the fleet gets beat up far too much on the way into a fight though.  They have the range bands of Relthoza, but not equivalent defences (and I think most of the Relthoza ships are too easy to hurt anyway).

Sorylians need a rethink.  If they're going to continue to be the shortest-ranged fleet in the game, on average, they need significantly better defences.

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6 minutes ago, Paladin21 said:

I haven't played against or with Sorylians in at least a year.  They just weren't fun for either the person playing or their opponents.  The only winning strategy we could find for them was to try to tough it out to get a few points from the scenario and then bail before damage caught up and messed up your BL score.  

The Hasta's are good, and I actually got good usage out of the Destroyers too (by ignoring Ambush and just letting them snipe with Kinetics from turn 1).  Everything else in the fleet gets beat up far too much on the way into a fight though.  They have the range bands of Relthoza, but not equivalent defences (and I think most of the Relthoza ships are too easy to hurt anyway).

Sorylians need a rethink.  If they're going to continue to be the shortest-ranged fleet in the game, on average, they need significantly better defences.

It does sound like Encased Weapons will be one of their schticks this time around, but you aren't wrong about the current state of things.

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One simple faction balancing change would be to take the bonus point of DR on most Aquan ships (they are usually +1 DR above "average" by class) and give it to the Sorylians instead.  That said, I'm in the definite minority in that I never seem to have problems as a Sorylian player.  I've come to the conclusion they somehow just fit my instincts perfectly, and I'm weird.  I even offered to trade my Directorate fleet to the guy in my area who usually plays Sorylians because he's so frustrated with them but he would rather not play at all than switch fleets, so far.  And like the Dindrenzi, they'll get a noticeable boost (obviously not as big a one, but noticeable nonetheless) in v3 simply by everything going to F instead of FF.

One note on the Veydreth, I've always thought they are just way too similar to the Sorylians themselves to be a useful ally.  Beams instead of Scatter but other than that the same basic designs: S/P broadsides with supporting torps, above average but not awesome boarding, etc...

 

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Sorylians got the $#!t gimped out of them in this edition.  They got the shortest range band weapons, which wasn't bad in and of it's self, but then they really got bent over without without lubricant by the simultaneous reduction of Attack Dice, Firing Arcs and Range Bands of their regular and heavy cruisers, frigates and corvettes.  The battleship just sort of stayed the same no changes or improvements, which compared to every other battleship which got something better out of V2, it now lags behind.

If that doesn't change and this whole thing of Scatter being further reduced in effectiveness to only Range Band 1 stays in, the Sorylians will become the race you play if you just don't want to win at all.

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Sorylians NEVER made the jump form 1.0 to 2.0 . I wasn't in the beta but I did get to see in the forum  from a member and I saw the most revolting ridiculous things going on in there. This was the actual mantra that was actually said, used and went by. Sorylians :  Someone has to be the boring race....................... honest to God's truth. That was what was going on. It really was disgusting and the fact it was allowed to go on shows how careless the beat was allowed to get. Oh yeah and they said the Shantu had to be have it's firepower dropped because " people liked the model so much " ....... yeah.  Also Sorylians were not addressed til very late in the process, they were hardly played and when it was more than apparent to even that group the Tier 1's needed  serious attention all hell broke loose between the "must be boring" crowd and more semi-reasonable ones and shattered the clique. But enough of the horrid past and on to the future !

8 inch range bands MUST go the way of the Dodo bird. We are not on 4x4 boards anymore as standard and Kinetics have far to much reach. 8 inch bands have no place on a 6x4 board or larger. Sorylians and every short range fleet need 10 inch bands same as Beams. It is the most simple and elegant way to give them a boost. We've been doing that for a very long time around here and has been most helpful without doing a total redesign.  If you want 8 inch bands put them on all races tertiary weapons systems and on everyone's frigates and escorts.


Kon Avarr shock troops need to be able to cut loose in boarding with a boost. If you're going to have giant close combat happy space lizards they need to be able to live up to that in the rules.

The Swordbreaker/Falx and Broadsword must be able to take forward Kinetic options as part of their build potentials. Either that or massive torpedo mounts. Sorylians are extremely smart and would have learned that lesson hundreds of years ago.

Battlecruisers need work . The support option is semi-okay [ except for that freaking model ] but being Sorylain there needs to be heavily armed options available to build.

Halberd/Kopis need to be able to go toe to toe with the other heavy cruisers.

Bombard/Warwolf [ needs that name changed ] . Needs to have torps brought back up to 1.0 level and they are good to go.

Scatter.  Enough with the Scatter already !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  How about Decimator  or Maximised Firepower for the big weapon banks.

 If Kinetics are getting the bump then more Shields across the board.

More PD. Again Sorylians aren't stupid. If they aren't going fighter to fighter then they would mount more PD. [ Notice I said Fighter  wink wink  [ still staying on our tables ;) ]

Allied synergy , just don't know. Sure we played allies and allied fleets when they were first introduced but bleh, pure fleets are the way to go except for occasional  or special use . Each fleet must be able to stand on its own . can't stand cherry picking fleets.

Sorylians have been forced to play in one or two ways to even attempt to survive the battle, let alone win and that MUST BE STOPPED in 3.0 or what's the point in buying the rulebook and fleet guide. Everything can be fixed at home/club without them.

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2 minutes ago, mutantpoo said:

Sorylians NEVER made the jump form 1.0 to 2.0 . I wasn't in the beta but I did get to see in the forum  from a member and I saw the most revolting ridiculous things going on in there. This was the actual mantra that was actually said, used and went by. Sorylians :  Someone has to be the boring race....................... honest to God's truth. That was what was going on. It really was disgusting and the fact it was allowed to go on shows how careless the beat was allowed to get. Oh yeah and they said the Shantu had to be have it's firepower dropped because " people liked the model so much " ....... yeah.  Also Sorylians were not addressed til very late in the process, they were hardly played and when it was more than apparent to even that group the Tier 1's needed  serious attention all hell broke loose between the "must be boring" crowd and more semi-reasonable ones and shattered the clique. But enough of the horrid past and on to the future !

Just to be clear, these discussions were not the tone that was in the current beta team.  I think most of us recognized that the Sorylian ships needed to be upgraded in some fashion.

 

5 minutes ago, mutantpoo said:

Kon Avarr shock troops need to be able to cut loose in boarding with a boost. If you're going to have giant close combat happy space lizards they need to be able to live up to that in the rules.

Yep.

Quote

Scatter.  Enough with the Scatter already !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  How about Decimator  or Maximised Firepower for the big weapon banks.

I have it on good authority that the Sorylian lab guys have been busy.   Scatter is still there, but it's not the only thing now.

Quote

Allied synergy , just don't know. Sure we played allies and allied fleets when they were first introduced but bleh, pure fleets are the way to go except for occasional  or special use . Each fleet must be able to stand on its own . can't stand cherry picking fleets.

I get your point, but just wanted to remind everyone:  There is no distinction in fleet building between the companion races (Sorylian/Veydreth, Dindrenzi/RSN, etc) in that both races count toward the core fleet requirements.

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For Sorylian/Veydreth I think the best way to go about making them both distinct and add something to the combined fleet is to still leave the Sorylians as short ranged, extremely tough (and actually be tough, in many cases the best way was to not be on the board until you shunt as you'd be crippled otherwise) and very potent weapons once in close. Plus the occasional Kinetic on select ships.

Then to counteract the early turns just being a 'blast the lizard' while they drift toward you let the Veydreth provide ambush and scout ships so they can essentially start closer to the enemy so that the enemy has to deal with a few squadrons already mixed up with them rather than just blasting away at long range for TV and shunting out once the points are in their favour.

For this to work (under the current paradigm) you'd need to change the Ambush rule to allow more than one to reveal itself in a turn as otherwise you just reveal a squadron to watch it get shot to pieces once per turn.

OR play up the v2 tactic that emerged of Shunt entry. That feels a little less characterful though.

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Somewhat off-topic for this discussion, but I think Ambush would be a much more viable option if you could start with your engines hot when you voluntarily reveal.  Involuntary detection would still be at full stop, you're trying to hide.  Would help (along with the more than 1/turn for voluntary reveals) turn it from a disadvantage to an actual advantage.  Nobody in our meta uses Ambush any more because it's a death sentence for the squad to reveal and sit there versus allcomers for a turn while you wait to be able to move.

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4 hours ago, Spartan_FA_Mike said:

Just to be clear, these discussions were not the tone that was in the current beta team.  I think most of us recognized that the Sorylian ships needed to be upgraded in some fashion.

 

Yep.

I have it on good authority that the Sorylian lab guys have been busy.   Scatter is still there, but it's not the only thing now.

I get your point, but just wanted to remind everyone:  There is no distinction in fleet building between the companion races (Sorylian/Veydreth, Dindrenzi/RSN, etc) in that both races count toward the core fleet requirements.
 

All massive steps in the right direction !

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@Spartan_FA_Mike i am trying to be as objective as possible on the ships. i am going to list all ships and what the problem with those are if i find any. I regularly play sorylians and i love them but they got some serious issues, which i hope will crystallize when looking into the ships one by one. overall the sorylians have problems getting into range or surviving until they get into range. 

Broadsword (Dreadnought): Actually not a bad ship. probably the most reliable T1 the sorylians have. it has decent broadsides but the fore weapon seems very useless in particular. one of the biggest problems of the fore weapon system is that it does nothing against other T1 while approaching. if it turns and unleashes it full firepower on something it does alot but that will only persist 2 turns until the enemy fleet will turn it to shreds. there we have the other problem of the ship: its defenses, therefor the lack of such. 1 shield and DR6 will ensure that 90% of the time it will get damaged. decent cr of 12 protects it from some crits but the ship will not persist a firefight. basically its a glascannon with a high pricetag for doing nothing the first 2 turns. getting in range is a problem if the enemy positions himself well or in case of some factions are simply faster than you. they run away while u poke them with a bad range, low damage front weapon.it can bring 3 wings but why? better take 1-2 escorts and protect it properly from torps and maybe the escorts will absorb some damage. the rest of the upgrades are just movement and the +2 ap to get in range and if there board because the ship wont survive anyway.

 

Falx (battleship): same problem as with the dread but even worse because it does not take damage very good.and costs to many points for what it does. second assault is a waste because it wont live for 2 boarding attempts. with split fire and the load of scatter with decent AD it shreds T3 but thats not the best thing to shoot at with a T1. taking light frigates makes it way better and those things soak some damage, but still no ship you want to take.

 

Morning Star (Carrier): nothing to complain about that ship. with fighters it has a good threat range and it does something. but taking it as your T1 for a fight is not a good idea as it will die very fast as any other carrier if focused. 

 

Phalanx (battlestation): it cant move. sorylians wont take it because of it. decent torps though.

 

hasta (battlecruiser): best T1 sorylians can muster. not a good thing if you want your admiral on it because it is just a battlecruiser. a squad of 2 pack a punch. basically heavy cruisers on steroids. 

 

Bombard (Gunship): Those things are good long-ish range support for a sorylian fleet. nothing to complain in all honesty.

 

Aspis (Defence Platform): same as with battlestation

 

Halberd (Heavy Cruiser): very good at punching ships into oblivion but no defences at all. that thing is a glascannon and you will feel every lost ship because of the pricetag. a squad costs 400 points. thats a lot. main problem is they distribute their power amongst 4 ships which are not the best on their own.

 

Falcata (Cruiser): Best ship, hands down. fast, powerful and have some defence in form of a shield with decent CR7. they die like every other cruiser and they might cost 5 points to much.

 

Kestros (Destroyer): Decent long range support fot the fleet. pack-hunter on them is rediculously good. would not change a thing.

 

Arrow (Escort): basically some extra hp for your t1 with good pd.

 

Reaper (Frigate): With pack hunter the second best ship the sorylians have. nothing to complain

 

Plumbata (Corvette): share a place with the reaper. scout is good. they are pretty much interchangeable depending on playstyle. (they need resin models though)

 

Harvester (Gunship): Good mid range support. packhunter is a must

 

lucern (light cruiser): same slot as reaper and plumbata. never take it. doesnt make sense. they die faster than frigates.

 

Flechette (Light frigate): good ship as accomp for the battleship. never to be taken as squad though because they are not even close to be compared with reapers or plumbatas

 

Amentum (Battlecruiser): those things are actually a good mid range support. T1 slot though...

 

Katar (Assault cruiser): in 2.0 you shunt them in and steal their stuff. very funny and pretty reliable. they can even shoot something in front of them before boarding the ship next to them. decent speed. quite good but maybe a bit overcosted for the fact they have one weapon system and thats more or less meh. in 3.0 without stealing their ships they are maybe not that usefull, but i cant say that without seeing the full rules.

 

corvus (Frigate): just nope in any given way. hust take reapers for the same points. they can wall of bomber heavy lists or shunt in against pd mountains, but why?

 

thats it from me. in my opinion most ships just need some MAR that lets them get in range a little bit better (like retractable plating) i like the flavour of the ships hunting in packs and having a MAR for showing that off. i really love the idea of scatter. in my head they always fire a ton of flakk-projectiles and have deadly perimeters around their ships. i just always think that they are in general overcosted by 5 points and they lack retractable plating. they look for me like they have it and they feel like they need it. it even makes sense in my head for the sorylians being smart enough to have some defensive system protecting them to get into those close range engagements they clearly favour.

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@Neratius...just off the top of your head, eh?   Wow... :)

6 hours ago, Neratius said:

in my opinion most ships just need some MAR that lets them get in range a little bit better

 

6 hours ago, Neratius said:

it even makes sense in my head for the sorylians being smart enough to have some defensive system protecting them to get into those close range engagements they clearly favour.

Yes to both.  The Weapon Shielding and Encased Weapon MARs will help them close the distance.  These two will reduce or eliminate the weapon degradation as they take damage.

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The only thing I know is the Carnivore needs help- it made sense in a combined arms alliance fleet, but alongside Sorys and other Veydreth, it doesn't do anything that isn't already covered.

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Considering the Squadron rules for Reinforced Squadrons allow you to swap any Standard Cruiser (whatever that is) for any other Medium you could potentially swap in a Veydreth Cruiser into a Skyhammer squadron (I assume the basic Sorylian Cruiser counts as 'standard') are there any that you'd want to swap in?

The beams vs scatter means coherence effects might be an issue but considering that Scatter now only does anything at 8 inches AND no longer does anything special in Gas Clouds it's not like you're losing much by losing that effect AND by linking in a Beam to lose the Scatter you gain the ability to perform Targeted Strikes which would be impossible if you had the Scatter coherence effect (note in v.2 you could targeted strike with Scatter guns if you wanted to, in v.3 you cannot).

Which, yes, means one of the advantages of mixing in a veydreth ships is that it allows us to NOT use our racial 'theme' coherence effect...

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yeah, it's kinda sad that one of the worst fleets in the core 6 (by general consensus) is losing the one cool trick they had. I mean it's there technically, but with such short range, and gas clouds (frequently used and abused :)) ignoring it, scatter is only a fraction better the vanilla primary, I would take the trade for beams, increased range, and better chance to hit EVERYTHING point blank, including stuff in gad clouds (rerolling ones, can still be 6's)

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Greater proliferation of Experienced Engineers I think would be a nice thematic nod and can easily be lumped on top of other adjustments as Mediums tend to have short life spans.

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Well Veydreth are going to need a ground-up rework with the neutering of Boarding and Mines, which were the whole focus of their fleet.

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On 8/11/2017 at 4:46 PM, N2OJoe said:

Well Veydreth are going to need a ground-up rework with the neutering of Boarding and Mines, which were the whole focus of their fleet.

Also I vaguely recall somewhere that Ambush was also being removed from V3.

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3 hours ago, Commodore Jones said:

Also I vaguely recall somewhere that Ambush was also being removed from V3.

Guessing the justification is because it uses tokens........

Ship models and their bases are just another form of token, denoting their position and facing, why haven't they been removed?

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have you seen v3 rules covering most defensive mars? kinetic countering shields and cloak going to near useless. they are certainly working on the removal of those pesky ship tokens that are such an eyesore.

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movement is the most important part of the game. it is the starting point for everything. A free format movement you are suggesting is easy for the game designers but it is not really a movement rule. You should make rules and let the players discuss the rulrs. Good templates is also what the rule makers should provide.

 

 

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