Polaris

Cloaks in 3.0

Cloaks in 3.0   41 members have voted

  1. 1. which version of cloaks do you prefer

    • I prefer the changes in 3.0 that cloaks do not cut the attack dice, but prevent exploding dice
      8
    • I prefer cloaks in 2.0 that allow exploding dice, but cut the attack dice in half
      32

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91 posts in this topic

What about this?

Cloaking (X) MAR: Due to the nature of cloaks disrupting targeting sensors all ships attacking a cloaked ship lose X number of successes from their attack. Ships in cloak lose X number of successes when attacking out of cloak. 

azrael likes this

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13 hours ago, CoreHunter said:

what if cloak had a X value and turned X 6s into black dice?

could even limit the network mar to a very few ships and it could give cloaked squads with at least one ship in command distance a non stacking +X to their cloak value; ships without cloak gain cloak X.

Notwithstanding my previous comments about entering a communications blackout, I had a few minutes this morning to check in on things.  While I'm pondering FSA-3 in general, cloaks are one of the things that I'm specifically thinking about, and this caught my eye.

In 3rd edition we are trying to eliminate the need for halving dice, which is why Cloaks got targeted, so to speak.  As has been discussed here, making them simply BLUE doesn't give enough of a attacking penalty, or defensive bonus, to be of much worry.  Generally speaking it seems that players are in favor of keeping a exploding dice threat attached to cloaks. Building on this idea from CoreHunter and others, how about this:

Cloaking Field (Density Level):   While the Cloaking Field is active, any attack against this model must first convert a number of AD equal to the Density Level to [BLACK] dice.  Additionally, all attack dice against a model with an active Cloaking Field receive a -1 bonus to-hit.  Attacks originating from a cloaked vessel also convert dice in the AD pool to [BLACK] dice, but do not suffer the -1 penalty to-hit.

Scatter WAR:  In addition to other effects, ignore the -1 to-hit penalty when firing against cloaked ships if all weapons have the Scatter WAR.

So, I do remember the heartburn that many have on the Kinetics vs. Shields issue.  I only propose this here as it provides a limited counter-balance to cloaks, and is a nod to the thematic animosity they have for each other.

Based on these two changes, cloaks have a both the defensive bonus, and a slightly less negative attack penalty.  I'm suggesting that the -1 to-hit only apply to inbound fire, since I believe that the cloak should give a slight advantage to the attacking side.

Cloaks can be dropped at the start of the squadron activation, and restored during the end phase.

What do you guys think?

Warning:  Math ahead.

We have the following probabilities for scoring hits per die:

  • [RED] = 0.8 per die;  0.6 per die with -1 to-hit
  • [BLUE] = 0.67 per die;  0.5 per die with -1 to-hit
  • [BLACK] = 0.5 per die;  0.33 per die with -1 to-hit

Given a 14 AD attack, (more or less a standard cruiser attack), we get the following hits on average, depending on the cloak strength:

  • Cloak (8) on:   6 [RED] + 8 [BLACK] = 3.6 + 2.4 = ~6 total 
  • Cloak (7) on:   7 [RED] + 7 [BLACK]4.2 + 2.1 = ~6 total 
  • Cloak (6) on:   8 [RED] + 6 [BLACK] = 4.8 + 1.8 = ~7 total 

Scatter vs Active Cloak:

  • Cloak (8) on:   6 [RED] + 8 [BLACK] = 4.8 + 2.4 = ~7 total 
  • Cloak (7) on:   7 [RED] + 7 [BLACK] = 5.6 + 2.1 = ~7 total 
  • Cloak (6) on:   8 [RED] + 6 [BLACK] = 6.4 + 1.8 = ~8 total 
Polaris and tansalus like this

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I think if the Cloak value is not high enough to discourage it, I would take the black dice penalty (since it's limited) to get the proxy DT.

Polaris likes this

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Frankly, I think this is too complex. The mechanic used should be uniform for the entire roll. If you still want Exploding Dice, just go back to HALF AD. Just do that after the full pool has been calculated and also HALF the Hits removed by damage to the attacking squadron. 

Or just decide that using a different mechanic than Shields is unnecessary and have Cloak 5 give both the Cloaked Ship and any ship it attacks 5 Dice to remove Hits. 

Xerkics likes this

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11 minutes ago, alextroy said:

Frankly, I think this is too complex. . 

Given the stated desire of 3rd - so much this - either it just knocks off some successes and gets a -1 to hit or I'd say all black works OK and is really simple

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For what is is worth, I think that Blue Dice with -1 To Hit Modifier is the best option for good defensive bonus while allowing greater than AD Hits against/by a cloaked ship. You could then add in some of the options you are thinking about like Scatter negates the -1 To Hit Modifier and maybe a MAR that allows some ships to negate their -1 to Hit when cloaked while their opponents still suffer the penalty. That would allow the Relthoza to have better cloaks than Directorate and RSN ships.

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but do we ant the relthza to have better cloaks then directorate relthoza? they already have stealth, which stacks with the cloaks, the directorate ships that use cloaks (destroyers, carrier, battlestaion, and heavy cruisers) rely on cloaks as there form of defense, if we have inferior cloaks for factions other factions who use them (and it's not just 1 or 2 models, but a few mainstays) the ships with cloaks in V2 will see little gametime in V3

I sight the directorate carrier as an example, DR 5 CR7 (reinforced fore sure) 7HP, and 6 wings, with 8 dice being it's toughest weapon. It needs good cloaking to be viable, or it will die before it can deliver it's meager payloads, it's wepons being nerfed by cloaks at all, makes them obsolete, 8 dice is not a lot. the way you had to play it, was change the fore beam to cyber (meaning cloaks wouldn't hinder it) and stay cloaked the entire game, with a couple of tormentors to boost the cyber to a finally respectable 14AD

the cloak is what helped this carrier have it's niche (especially is used as an assault carrier) without it, it's not really worth taking.

sorry for the ramble, main point being cloaks are cloaks, lets not give inferior and superior cloaks to factions, without taking into account how this effects balance.

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too true, which is why I said it can't be done without balance, but without a major overhaul, ships like the directorate carrier become moot...

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I guess I'm not worried about it too much, being a Cloakless Terran player. 12 AD attack a carrier:

  • Aquan: 12 AD = 9.6 Hits. 1 Shield = -0.8 Hits. Net effect: 8.8 Hits, or a Critical Hit against CR 8
  • Dindrenzi: 12 AD = 9.6 Hits, right on the line of a Critical Hit against CR 10
  • Directorate (Heavy Dice, -1 Hit Cloak): 12 AD = 6 Hits, or a Hit against DR 5
  • Relthoza (Heavy Dice, -1 Hit Cloak): 12 AD = 6 Hits, or a Hit against DR 5
  • Sorlyrian: 12 AD = 9.6 Hits. 1 Shield = -0.8 Hits. Net effect: 8.8 Hits, or right on the line of a Critical Hit against CR 9
  • Terran: 12 AD = 9.6 Hits. 2 Shield = -1.6 Hits. Net effect: 8.2 Hits, or a Critical Hit against CR 8

So the Cloaked Carriers still have the best defenses if you go Blue Dice with -1 Hit. They both are likely to get a Hit will all other others are hovering just over or under the Critical Hit Threshold at 12 AD. If AD are lower, the Cloaked ships rapidly fall into luck to hit me territory while everyone else is getting still getting a Hit with DR 5 (6 for Aquan)

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If you don't want to halve, don't want to faff around with varying 'types of dice' (I think the heavy dice and other types should die in a fire, keep your core resolution mechanic consistent each time you pick up those dice), want to avoid complexity etc. why not just use the 'subtract successes' mechanic you're already using for normal attacks?

Ultimately a Cloak and a Shield are just different ways of reducing the number of net successes against a ship when fired upon and removing flavour for the sake of expedience seems a design tradeoff made elsewhere.

Cloak (2/3/4/etc.) remove 2/3/4/etc. hits from any incoming or outgoing attack while the cloak is active.

Or how about making a Cloak an extended Stealth? While a Cloak is active incoming and outgoing attacks reroll all hits. Stealth only works at long range, Cloaks at any range while active.

blut_und_glas and fracas like this

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For the love of space spiders please keep cloaks simple.

How about this.

Cloak - Blue dice are used for cloaked ships. Initial dice rolls of 6 do not count as hits and must be re-rolled. Any re-rolls must be accepted. This applies for shooting at cloaked ships and for cloaked ships shooting.

Simple, feels like the ship is harder to hit, smalls can luck out with enough 6's(on the re-roll), and you will need to drop the cloak if you feel you need to put out some heavy damage. 

Mathhammer likes this

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I thought cloak making x 6s into black dice would have been simple but apparently not. -1s and scatter and all kinds of chaff was needed.

Cloak (x): while cloak is active attacks from or at the cloaked vessel treats X number of dice rolls of 6 as black dice.

Simple no huge paragraphs just one or two lines. You want -1 you have hard target, stealth, system network, or any number of other mars to add that effect. Making scatter better should be left to the scatter mar itself.

Scatter (X): within X" ship suffers no penalties to hit and its dice always count as red.

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9 hours ago, Vedar said:

For the love of space spiders please keep cloaks simple.

How about this.

Cloak - Blue dice are used for cloaked ships. Initial dice rolls of 6 do not count as hits and must be re-rolled. Any re-rolls must be accepted. This applies for shooting at cloaked ships and for cloaked ships shooting.

Simple, feels like the ship is harder to hit, smalls can luck out with enough 6's(on the re-roll), and you will need to drop the cloak if you feel you need to put out some heavy damage. 

gives you a magic number of .44

to be honest just using black dice would be a lot simpler.

 

                               Cloak compare
             Red Dice             Blue Dice            Black Dice        Blue reroll 6
             Version 2.0          Version 3.0     Version 3.0 proposed  
Attack  Final      Hits      Final      Hits      Final      Hits       Final      Hits      
 Dice   Dice  80%  40%  .81  Dice  80%  40% .667  Dice  80%  40% .50    Dice  80%  40% .0   
  21     10    5    9    8  | 21   11   15   14  | 21   11    9   10  |  21   10    7
  20     10    5    9    8  | 20   11   14   13  | 20   11    8   10  |  20   10    7

 

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The best idea that I've seen thus far has been straight basic dice. Its easy to remember and easy to use. If you want to make things a bit more interesting you could give scatter a +1 to hit against cloaks.

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I'm surprised to see so many of you wanting to add another rock-paper-scissors interaction between fleets. Its something i really dislike as it creates a underdog vs topdog situation before the game even begins. Often making players less willing to play certain combinations of races because they either will feel unfairly handicapped or that their win was "dirty" because they had a pregame advantage. 
This is especially damaging in small player groups (who wants an archenemy you always struggle against against simply because of your respective fleet choice) and for players with only one fleet (avoiding "unfair" match ups quickly sours your relationship to the rest of the playerbase). 

If one faction is given an advantage against their chosen foe, their foe should receive a similarly powerful advantage. After all both sides have had time to specialize...

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6 hours ago, Mathhammer said:

to be honest just using black dice would be a lot simpler.

The problem with Black Dice is the complete inability to do more Hits than Dice. The is one of the hallmarks of the Spartan System and an important factor in the statistics. With 10 AD you get the following results when you n compare Black Dice to Blue Dice with -1 Hit Modifier:

  • Black Dice: 82% Chance of 4 Hits, 62% Chance 5 Hits, 20% Chance of 7 Hits, 0.1% Chance of 10 Hits
  • Blue Dice: 71% Chance of 4 Hits, 55% Chance of 5 Hits, 26% Chance of 7 Hits, 4% Chance of 10 Hits

As you can see, the more complicated Blue system gives a much better chance of getting higher rolls. This is important in FSA and I believe makes it a superior choice to Black Dice.

I also believe that this system allows for minor factional bonuses around cloak that could be interesting without being game breaking. Examples:

  • Relthoza Mediums and Large Ships have Superior Cloaking MAR that allows them to ignore the -1 Hit when firing their weapons while cloaked. This does not carry over to Small Ships who gain Cloak from Systems Network (that once again allows Small Ships with Command Distance of a Cloaked Ship with Systems Network to Cloak).
  • Scatter Weapons negate the -1 to Hit Modifier for shooting at Cloaked Ships

Relthoza would thus be better at fighting while cloaked, but would be encouraged to uncloak close to Sorylian Ships that have lots of Scatter Weapons that negate the advantage they have over other forces who lack Scatter Weapons.

Spartan_FA_Mike likes this

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Yea going completely black dice will make some ships unable to damage others and is mainly why I suggested only making a few black and not all.

How is it complicated? Oh you rolled 5 6s my cloak tuts 2 of those into black dice done. Proceeds to roll your 3 exploding 6s.

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I think you are focusing too much on removing halving dice what you should be focusing on is removing the need to use multicolored dice in the first place. And try to go for a solution that involves just rolling normal dice. Halving dice is simple your multi coloured solution is over complicating something without an actual need to do so. Why is there a need to remove halving dice? Because its not streamlining it. If it aint broke dont fix it ive never seen a statement ring more true when it comes to your rainbow dice and cloaking. Does the game really need multi colored dice? Just how Neil hates tokens i hate the idea of you trying to reinvent the wheel here. It makes no sense.

Commodore Jones and Polaris like this

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It can be done fluffy too as smaller ships would have greater cloak values to offset lower Dr's as they have less of a signature and easier to hide than larger more durable ships.

Most ships would have a rating between 3 or 6 depending on class and DR.

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I agree that the whole dumbing down the game is stupid as most games that treat their player base like 4yr olds intellectually tend to fade out.

Basic math shouldn't be a henderance for playing a game like you are claiming.

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Honestly, cloak in V2 was perfectly fine, it worked, it wasn't complicated (this coming from a dyscalculic math tard), most of all IT DIDN'T NEED TO BE CHANGED!

Xerkics likes this

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