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PrussianJunker

Bombs, And The Changes To Them.

138 posts in this topic

With the vote for the changes to the bombs being posted I have a couple question that I would like raised.

Where will the 4" 360 be measured from?

What are other forum dwellers think about the potential changes?

The proposed changes could have drastic affects on bombers and other craft that use bombs, and as such that I would like to hear the communities opinion on the matter.

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I tend to think the 4' 360 deg measured from the models base is not only fair but pretty realistic. When you think about a bomb falling from a great height wind direction, wind speed, aircraft speed and other factors have to be taken into consideration and calculated for a successful hit. not trying to get too technical but the 360 deg arc is realistic or even a 270 deg rear arc. one of the drastic changes would be that a bomber could bomb that cruiser that is 3 inches in front of him and on the next turn bomb the same target again after moving past it.. hmmmm reminds me of several wwII movies where they release their bombs before they even fly directly over the target and get direct hits( i know dont believe everything you see in the movies) but it does make sense.

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I'd just like to sound off that I managed to learn an important lesson about this forum - when it says view by null vote, it actually means "give up your vote to satisfy your curiosity." That being said, I'd clicked the radio button for my preferred choice already, so I voted in spirit even if not in actual fact (and heck, I might've voted in actual fact, I am not sure).

Regardless, the option I think makes the most sense is for TFTs to drop bombs in a 360 degree arc around themselves simply because it seems that in all other respects TFTs are treated as what they, well, _are_: Tokens. They're representational markers to a greater degree than other miniatures in the game and so there should be a bit more leeway for where they can affect on the tabletop since they are the most maneuverable unit by several orders of magnitude relative to everything else in the game.

However, I also think that capital class vessels with bombs should be restricted to a 4" aft 90 arc simply because they are not nearly so maneuverable as the tiny flyers.

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I don't think this idea affects the TF tokens. Dive Bombers are stated to have to move into base contact with something to attack it because they literally fly over the target and drop their bombs.

This applies more to Bomb Ordnance, and allows anything with Bomb weapons (such as the Inari, Pflicht, Hawk, and Lee class scout fliers) to drop in a radius around themselves intead into a fixed aft arc like they currently do. Personally, I love the idea even if I cast my vote for the fixed aft arc.

I'd have to say the 4" in question would be measured from the base, or maybe even the center of the model (like some rockets). This would give some more solid uses to bigger units with Bombs to drop that are slow and have a difficult time doing the standard fly-over. On the other hand, unless there is some sort of specialized system for... I dunno a good word for it, 'Spraying' I guess the bombs out like some sort of angry sprinkler system, I can't see an explaination for being able to sue them in anything but the fixed aft arc like they currently do. Bombs go down. They're designed that way. The reason in movies that you see them dropping the bombs BEFORE they are over their target is that they still retain the foreward motion of the craft that drops them, because that's how physics and the laws of motion work.

It's ultimately up to Spartan, but it will either change how often I use bombs (which would be nice, the Tenkei Sky Fortress gets 10) or will have no effect on the way I play. Either way, I don't LOSE anything, so we'll have to see.

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I don't think this idea affects the TF tokens. Dive Bombers are stated to have to move into base contact with something to attack it because they literally fly over the target and drop their bombs.

This applies more to Bomb Ordnance, and allows anything with Bomb weapons (such as the Inari, Pflicht, Hawk, and Lee class scout fliers) to drop in a radius around themselves intead into a fixed aft arc like they currently do. Personally, I love the idea even if I cast my vote for the fixed aft arc.

I'd have to say the 4" in question would be measured from the base, or maybe even the center of the model (like some rockets). This would give some more solid uses to bigger units with Bombs to drop that are slow and have a difficult time doing the standard fly-over. On the other hand, unless there is some sort of specialized system for... I dunno a good word for it, 'Spraying' I guess the bombs out like some sort of angry sprinkler system, I can't see an explaination for being able to sue them in anything but the fixed aft arc like they currently do. Bombs go down. They're designed that way. The reason in movies that you see them dropping the bombs BEFORE they are over their target is that they still retain the foreward motion of the craft that drops them, because that's how physics and the laws of motion work.

It's ultimately up to Spartan, but it will either change how often I use bombs (which would be nice, the Tenkei Sky Fortress gets 10) or will have no effect on the way I play. Either way, I don't LOSE anything, so we'll have to see.

I'd say it should be 4" from the center post(s) of the model.

[mildy offtopic]

I've always viewed each nations weaponry as using different styles of technology to achieve the same ends.

The British look like they use steam boilers to either power prop-screws or my favorite, to power magna-drives to move not themselved, but the world around them (Not a lets go over there, but a lets make that come here engine)

The FSA have thier paddlewheels, powered by Stuginium fueled supermen, running inside the paddle wheels themselves.

The Prussians run electric engines off thier Tesla generators, perhaps they use the Tesla generators to power a Magnetohydrodynamic pulse engine.

The EotBS use a sturginium enhanced-diesel water-jet-engine that allows them fast turning do to the ability to redirect the output through 'truster' vents along the side of the ship.

[/mildy offtopic]

So there's many ways a faction could gain the 4" bombs on larger models:

The Britanian could use magnetic controls similar to how they currently use some of their mines.

The EoBS could use an increadibly short range rocket/kamakaze fighter craft that is primarilty a warhead with wings.

The Prussians could use Tesla tecnology to direct and guide thier bombs. Heck it could be a super condensed Tesla charge that's the warhead.

The FSA could be man-sized remote controlled robots that explode after attaching themselves to an enemy vessel. They may or not use paracutes or be called 'Teddy's'

The CoA could simple teleport thier Bombs in from another location and are merely providing a set of co-ordinates to an off table barrage site, or use a form of explosive drone.

The French... Could be using a special form of thier Rage generators to cause a condensed, localised inferno that melts steel and sets off enemy amunition stores.

There's even more, but the main thing is that they act like bombs, these days bombers or thier support can direct the warheads after release to get more accurate strikes on targets, and this is a world in which science has run rampantly past our own. Mad science full of awesome and imaginings beyound our own.

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I'd say it should be 4" from the center post(s) of the model.

The RAW states on page 21, right column:

"For ALL OTHER Ordnance weapons measure from the centre of the appropriate side of the model, base or Flight Stand"

(since 4" 360 deg. bombs are not: turrets, batteries, broadsides or fixed channel weapons)

In other words, unless Spartan specifically adds bombs to this list (if they do decide to change bombs to 4" 360 degs), it should be measured from the middle of the closest side of the flight stand.

Cheers,

Falconer

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Why are we changing the bomb rules?

What was wrong with the old ones?

the whole point of bombs is you fly over something to bomb it - you don't move beside it and fling the bomb out sideways...

In reality bombs do not fall straight down - they fall out in an arc towards the ground, because they are travelling at the speed of the craft that dropped them slowly losing speed until they are going straight down.

The problem being how to replicate this in a game, without overcomplicating the rules.

Simple - you fly over the target and can drop your bombs within 4" straight out the back - how difficyult is that :angry:

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Why are we changing the bomb rules?

What was wrong with the old ones?

the whole point of bombs is you fly over something to bomb it - you don't move beside it and fling the bomb out sideways...

In reality bombs do not fall straight down - they fall out in an arc towards the ground, because they are travelling at the speed of the craft that dropped them slowly losing speed until they are going straight down.

The problem being how to replicate this in a game, without overcomplicating the rules.

Simple - you fly over the target and can drop your bombs within 4" straight out the back - how difficyult is that :angry:

1. You answered your own question:

Because bombs do have an initial speed you could let the bombs fall and then make a turn. The result is that the bomb is hitting stuff that were in front of the position where you did the turn. So in this case it makes sense that you don't hit stuff behind you only.

2. In the game some bomb carrying minitures are rather slow and unmaneauverable. Let say a sky fortress want to drop bombs. If it can do this only in the fixed b channel its pretty hard to actually make use of this.

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The RAW states on page 21, right column:

"For ALL OTHER Ordnance weapons measure from the centre of the appropriate side of the model, base or Flight Stand"

(since 4" 360 deg. bombs are not: turrets, batteries, broadsides or fixed channel weapons)

In other words, unless Spartan specifically adds bombs to this list (if they do decide to change bombs to 4" 360 degs), it should be measured from the middle of the closest side of the flight stand.

Cheers,

Falconer

Was trying to imply something like that actually, didn't have my book to check the specifics of the Raw, so I went with what would probably make sense.

Why are we changing the bomb rules?

What was wrong with the old ones?

the whole point of bombs is you fly over something to bomb it - you don't move beside it and fling the bomb out sideways...

In reality bombs do not fall straight down - they fall out in an arc towards the ground, because they are travelling at the speed of the craft that dropped them slowly losing speed until they are going straight down.

The problem being how to replicate this in a game, without overcomplicating the rules.

Simple - you fly over the target and can drop your bombs within 4" straight out the back - how difficyult is that :angry:

Nothing too wrong with the old ones, except that it can get a lot less in touch with 'reality' with the larger models, should you use an s style curve to line up the shot, you can often target a spot that you never could have flown over and still be facing the same direction you started your turn in.

Couple this with the fact that I've put in 80 odd games with my Doncasters in the last year, I've managed to make 1 Bomb attackin all those 80 games, It was early on while I was still learning the game, it was a doosy (2 crits off of 2 seperate rolls agains a battleship) and my opponent still remembers it. My Doncasters have since either got shot down or had a torpedo target that was juicier and then gotten shot down.

But it had more to do with the fact that the 1.1 Rulebook sitting in my hand makes no mention of Bombs being a fixed aft channel anywhere in the text. Not in the small section in Ordnance that covered bombs, that only mentioned the fact that it had a 4" range. So to are the updated model stats (though a few needed correction, My Majesty among them) None of the Models with Bomb attacks specify arcs in the name or in the weapon decription, but they had a small section near each ship which had the fixed arcs for other weapons (Teslas, Rockets, Torpedoes.) as well as the turret arcs. So if all the other unit stats were to be believed to be accurate and up to date, what about Bombs?

Thus a quesion was asked about it, and a discussion raised.

Heck that discussion lead to me finding out I could fire my Doncaster's Torpedoes at any model I could draw clear line of sight to.

And nothing blocks a Flyer's LOS, though terrain still blocks some shots.

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If you start dropping the bombs 4" in front of your target, even if your bomber is destroyed those bombs will still hit the target. It makes more sense to have the bomb arc forward facing than aft.

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If you start dropping the bombs 4" in front of your target, even if your bomber is destroyed those bombs will still hit the target. It makes more sense to have the bomb arc forward facing than aft.

Actually no, if the Bomber is destroyed in the Counterattack, the bomb attack won't even get fired off, as Counterattack AA hits before a model can fire Ordnance attacks like Bombs.

In the games where I field them I'm lucky if my Doncasters last past turn 2, and recently that's only because of the point of shields my Guardian Generators put out.

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Simple - you fly over the target and can drop your bombs within 4" straight out the back - how difficyult is that :angry:

The problem (not that it's really a problem) is that the part about needing to be in the aft channel wasn't mentioned in the 1.1 rulebook. I'm in favor of the radius idea primarily because it's one less errata entry that needs to be made. Keep the ruleset as stable as possible for as long as possible, so long as things are relatively balanced.

If I thought radial bombing would be overpowered, it'd be a different story, and I'd change my vote to keeping the aft channel.

Greepa likes this

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Instead of 360 what about 180 aft? Make them more usable but not have the issue of bombs falling in front of the bomber.

We have been playing Dystopian Wars since it was released we have only bombed half a dozen targets so it would be nice if the arc was changed. Large/massive bombers have such a slow move they hardly ever get into the arc.

The big issue with changing bombs is they already have benefits that other weapons don't have. They ignore Shields and don't degrade. The Ptolemy moves 12" and with 4" radial bombs could hit a target two range bands away for 16 AD (with a full squad). The Pytheus moves 14" and does the same thing. While the other medium bombers could use the help to make them worthwhile there are issues that need to evaluated.

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Because of how incredibly awkward massive and large flyer bases are, you'll almost NEVER get a rear channel on anything. And if you do, it'll likely be half dice. The inability to 'stop' over any other model causes this.

A 360 bomb arc is not only a fix, it's going to be required for these incrediblty slow vessels to use their bombs at all.

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Because of how incredibly awkward massive and large flyer bases are, you'll almost NEVER get a rear channel on anything. And if you do, it'll likely be half dice. The inability to 'stop' over any other model causes this.

A 360 bomb arc is not only a fix, it's going to be required for these incrediblty slow vessels to use their bombs at all.

I totally agree with this. With all this talk about a 4" 360degree bomb arc, I immediately thought of my Eagle Rotor, and how obnoxious it is to line up a bomb attack with it because the base is like 4" long and yet the model only moves 7". It's a shame because the model's 9AD non-degrading Bombs are its best weapon, though it ends up being a close-range bullet-soaker anyway. I suppose it would look strange for a model of that size to huck bombs sideways, but as previously mentioned somewhere (I think) it's easy to forget that the model's physical height atop pegs is just a representation of flying ability. Perhaps to be more accurate the model would instead be sitting atop 3 foot flight pegs, but that would be rediculous. If that were the case though, it'd probably be easier to imagine the bombs going in any direction, considering the amount of air between the two models

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The Fixed Aft Channel Arc currently does allow you to move parallel to your target and then turn away, putting the target in your aft arc. This is the only way that I have seen bombing runs succeed with the larger models. I have used my Ptolemy Bombers (COA) by flying directly over targets, but they move 12" and can do so easily in most cases.

The 4" radius (measured from base of flying unit) would make it a lot easier to do, less maneuvering, and easier if you have a large model. But the less maneuvering is kind of a cop out (ask any EotBS about having to maneuver just to get a shot off) and may not really be a good justification.

My opinion is that the 4" radius would make bombing possible for the large models where it is not currently possible except in rare situations currently.

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My opinion is that the 4" radius would make bombing possible for the large models where it is not currently possible except in rare situations currently.

Used 'currently' twice there, mi campadre...

While I'd like to use my bombs more often, in all honesty, there's something here that really bothers me: As an EotBS player, I will never (NEVER) be able to bring all of my weapons to bear against a single target, let alone all at the same time, unless there is a very specific amount of my opponent being a total moron going on. Dealing with restrictive firing arcs is one of those things I put up with as a result of the faction I chose to play, and while it was explained in the poll-post that started this whole coversation that the omission of Fixed Aft Channel for bombs in 1.1 was a MISTAKE, I was a little shocked to see how many people were gung-ho to change something so they could get another weapon to use in more situations.

From my perspective, that seems, well, greedy. I've long since passed the point of pining for broadside arcs instead of FC broadsides, or maybe a few more generator options, or even, y'know, a DN that's worth more than chewed gum, and while I would appreciate the boon of some more useful bombs, it will by no means make or break my faction, and honestly I don't really need them to change because if I want to use them, I usually can; it just requires a little creativity, planning, and positioning which I have to do anyway.

This is probably why I voted to keep it the way it is, despite liking the proposed change quite a lot.

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To respond to the original post:

it would be measured from the flight base, as all other attacks from fliers are.

To respond to the kvetching over whether or not to change bombs:

I think letting them attack 360 degrees would be a good move. It can be very difficult to align the rear fixed arc on the large or massive fliers due to their lower speed and huge base size. It would represent the bomber making a bombing run during its move, rather than at the end of its move. I voted for the change, and thus far we seem to be in the lead.

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I voted for the 360 degrees for non-capital models, but I also think that just 360 is also fine. I think it's 1) fluffy and 2) will see more bombs being used! Both things that are great in my book.

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Another option, would be allowing 360' bombs if the firing model is Obscured and the Target on the Surface level.

We'd gain an increased arc of attack, but would have to strike on 6's, but that's making them over complicated.

a 360' arc would affect atleast 2 small, and almost every medium, large and massive flying model in the game.

It would give them the ability to use these powerful, yet increadibly short ranged weapons on a far more regular basis.

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